You must log in or # to comment.
Most people don’t even read the error messages. They’re never gonna read a whole manual.
Most people were conditioned by more “user-friendly” systems to ignore the content of error messages because only an expert can make sense of “Error: 0x8000000F Unknown Error”. So they don’t even try, and that’s how they put themselves in a
Yes, do as I say!situation.It’s not even obscure, context dependent errors. I’ve had many professional system administrators not understand what “connection was closed by peer” meant.
Well, to be fair, I’m also not very well versed in the intricacies of connecting with British nobility.
Have you tried turning the rape island off and on again?
One day I’ll catch that jerk Peer! So rude, always closing my connections!
In the admins defense. “Closed by peer” can indicate everything from a safe closure to an unsafe closure to a server connection terminating which causes the peer to terminate.
Like that’s a fair point of confusion.
What bugs me is when the error says something stupid specific and obvious such as
JavaScript heap out of memoryordd: error writing *pathname*: No space left on deviceYeah, but they literally couldn’t tell me if it’s a problem with the network or something else. It’s like it’s in a totally different language
yea thats fully understandable. also no idea why this post just showed in my feed, didn’t mean to revive a 4 month old comment 😅
That’s the beauty of the fediverse :)
But most error messages are in plain English first (plus some numbers and codes).
No, they see white (gray actually) blocky text on a black background, they think the machine is broken and go into panic mode. Instead of reading.
Which is kinda what you said.
What about the fucking manual?
Kama Sutra?
I guess you get good at Unix and refrigerator by reading it, so why not?
Don’t fuck the manual!
And because people don’t read error messages, many applications/sites/etc don’t even put them, or if they do they either don’t have any public facing documentation to actually figure out what that code means, or they do and it might as well be nothing
The error message:
People who don’t read error messages or do not take the time to see what is going on and just come to the technician/mechanic/doctor saying “it doesn’t work” or some half-assed hypothesis piss me off so bad.
I know that at some point we all do a little of this in our lifes, but some people don’t seem to be able to read one goddamn paragraph ever.
but some people don’t seem to be able to read one goddamn paragraph ever.
I had a problem with my car. It felt strange while driving. Made some unusual noise. Then a bit later the motor warning light came on.
I went to the garage, told them about the warning light and what I noticed the time before, what I suspected and such. A short while after the mechanic came to me and asked for a few details, as my description “wasn’t helpful” and the repair would be much faster with more details that told them where to look etc. Turns out the guy who checked in my car only noted “a warning light is on” and nothing else of my ramblings.
So sometimes it’s also paying attention to what might be important and relaying information.
To be fair, techs don’t usually talk to the people who can read, so they’re only ever going to see idiots. There are competent people in the world, they’ll just never need your help, so you don’t see them.
Last time I called tech support, it was for a Dell, and I interrupted their speech to tell them I already looked up the diagnostic. They asked which numbers were lit on the error panel to confirm I had the right diagnostic, and passed me directly to who I needed to talk to. I only called tech support because the cpu socket died and I was putting in a warranty claim, otherwise they would have never even heard from me because I could just install a new motherboard myself.
edit: speeling
THIS. The people who actually read the error messages aren’t going to stop there, they’re going to look up said error message, find a solution on their own, and continue with their day without having to interact with another human.
that’s why any manual worth their salt has a “quick start” section at the beginning (I say this knowing most man pages fail at this or put it at the end which is super unhelpful)
Just give me common uses and flags, you can have your more indepth stuff at the end
For appliances at least, 95% of “the manual” today is useless CYA safety disclosures in 17 different languages. Manuals today rarely contain useful information.
Until you do like step one of taking an appliance apart, and realize that the real manual is marked “for technician use only”, and it’s hidden inside of the appliance.
My washer and dryer both have good manuals complete with circuit diagrams under the top once i take a few screws out. My chest freezer has one taped up under the hatch where the compresser sits. My refrigerator has one hidden in the door hinge.
Yeah, my parents were about to throw out an oven that would keep shutting off. I pull it away from the wall and boom, wiring diagram. Take out the ohm meter, figure out that the resistance across the temperature probe went to near zero when steam intruded through a gap in the crimp. 5 dollar part and it was good to go for years to come (the new part was crimped in a simpler, more robust way).
Dishwasher had the service manual taped to the kick plate. It gave me codes to troubleshoot, finding the heating element died.
Ah, yeah, forgot that was another one I’ve done. It seems like I’ve taken apart most of my household appliances at this point.
deleted by creator
The troubleshooting section of the manual is almost always useless because it only ever covers user error.
My washer threw a drainage error and the manual suggested I blocked the outlet or had done something daft. I looked up the error code online and 90% of the time it was a failed water pump.
I had to replace the water pump. It was an easy job that required less documentation than a lego set for a 5 year old. You just had to know which screws to loosen to get to the pump. Was it documented? Of course not.
There’s sometimes a few Ikea style pictures showing how to put it on a table and plug it in. Which is possibly useful to some.
The actual manual is usually hidden somewhere on it for repair techs to find. For my oven it was taped on the back.
Yep. I needed the circuit diagram for my microwave to fix an issue with the light (kept blowing out bulbs rapidly). Turned out you have to pull it out of the top inner frame, after unscrewing the button board and top panel. Thankfully, was an easy soldering fix, thyristor blew.
Generally microwaves are amongst the devices I tag as “do not self repair” I lack the confidence in my repair skills to fuck with the machine with giant caps and built in death ray.
Discharging capacitors (and anything else that might hold a charge) isn’t that hard and dangerous if you know how. I used to work on radar systems with 32KV on big capacitor banks.
1: Connect a thick, beefy wire to a solid and reliable ground connection.
2: Rig up a way to hold that wire in a well-insulated way, so that you have thick, non-conductive insulation between you and the wire, but you can still move it around freely and easily.
3: Firmly touch the tip of that wire to the contacts of any capacitors you can see, any bare metal contacts you can see, and anything else that might be at all dangerous. If in any doubt at all, touch the wire to it. Do it twice, just to be sure you didn’t miss any. (There may possibly be sparks when you do this. That’s okay – it means it’s working. Do make sure you’re not close to anything that’s very flammable, though.)
After doing that, everything will be discharged and completely safe to work on.
For something the size of a microwave, you could build a capacitor discharge tool very simply and easily by taking any three-pronged power cord, cutting it in the middle, disconnecting and isolating the two power connections (leaving only the ground connection), leaving a bit of bare wire from the ground wire exposed at the end, and then wrapping your handle area in some extra layers of electrical tape (just in case some of those capacitors have voltages above ~300V). (Or if you want to be ultra-safe, tape a plastic or wooden handle to the wire instead.) Plug that modified 3-prong cable into any standard 3-prong household outlet to connect it to a reliable ground.
If you want to be a bit more professional about it, a grounding wire from an ordinary welder setup should be able to safely discharge just about anything you’d ever encounter.
You obviously have the experience and tbh that might be the best guide I’ve seen on building a capacitor discharge tool (it might also be the only one, but it seems to make sense). For the sake of completeness I assume I plug in the plug and it’s just using the house’s earth?
Not sure how possible it is to reassemble it in an unsafe manner with the magnetron in the mix and I’m not sure how much peace of mind I’d have using it afterwards. But I certainly feel a lot happier about discharging big caps now.
For the sake of completeness I assume I plug in the plug and it’s just using the house’s earth?
Yes! Heh, I guess I forgot that part. I should add it in, just in case.
Haha, I thought I better check to be sure. It’s such a fantastically straightforward sensible concept for a tool I’m honestly not sure why it’s not everywhere vs people shorting caps with a screwdriver.
Crimping a push fit terminal of some sort on the end would make a handy static wrist strap hookup too I’d imagine.
I mean this is true and yes but in an age where documentation is increasingly terrible, the idea of a service manual for something you bought is basically a foreign concept, and half the shit you buy doesn’t come with a meaningful manual does it really apply the same way?
Like sure, knowing the post error codes on my motherboard or linux stuff is possible because it’s documented. But the appliance example? That is increasingly false and those manuals are increasingly becoming 5 page idiot guides: “here is how to turn the system on and off, here is how to turn heat up/down, contact authorized vendor for issues” and if you don’t do that then you void your warranty. Any more robust documentation is locked to “authorized vendors” and costs $$$, if it even exists (and doesn’t just say “replace system when it stops working correctly)
I partly disagree with what you say. The subscription appliance garbage absolutely do lock advanced user manuals behind paywalls. But it isn’t not rare (at least right now) to still find products with good user manuals. There are usually separate documents with one being a “quick setup” and another being a full “user manual”. Avoid the worst offenders and you should be okay.
Becoming increasingly rare and we are speaking on different things. You are talking about a manual that explains how to make your washing machine wash. That is important, yes, but I am talking about a manual that explains how an appliance works.
the days of a manual explaining anything like an error code are basically dead. Name one appliance manufacturer that lists anything beyond the most basic of troubleshooting (“turn it off and back on”)
Like go back and look at an appliance manual from the 70s/80s/maybe 90s and you will see a more robust explanation of what to do when things go wrong. The further back you go the more likely you will see parts numbers, circuit diagrams, or be able to order a service manual that has such information.
We expect this shit level of documentation because we live in a throwaway culture that has tolerated this pisspoor level of documentation for decades. “Oh the washer isn’t working? It’s showing an E-05 error? Guess we better just go buy a new washer” or pay the manufacturer $120 for a “service charge” to find out that code means the latch sensor died and it’s a $30 part that is a simple 5 minute job except you can’t get the part because they won’t sell it to you
My VIC-20 and Commodore 64 came with pinout charts. Every single internal and external connector was labelled.
It’s been about 15 years since I did appliance servicing. But back then many of the dryers would still include a circuit diagram with wire color codes and a timing chart for the controller. But the fancier appliances that had digital control boards, touch panels, etc… Like LG and Samsung didn’t include crap unless you paid for their service portals. But, what they had behind the pay wall was often fairly detailed with tear down instructions and even full details of circuit boards including each pinout and often even flow charts for diagnostic steps making diagnostics almost dummy proof.
LG would even put on training and we’d get full inch to inch and a half booklets full of service details for a line of their products.
I still would never buy an LG appliance though. There was a reason they had to provide so many service details. Their appliances might have some fancy cushy innovations. But what good are these fancy features when your fridge doesn’t cool?
Yeah that’s exactly the problem. I don’t want to pay for access to a service portal to repair my appliance. I’m not a shop, I’m just some person with a busted washing machine. Just sell me the service manual as a pdf (or even better just give it to me since I already gave you a shitload of money for an appliance)
And realistically since 2010 basically all appliances have moved heavily towards digital controls. Microcontrollers everywhere. You can still get stuff without touch controls (for now, even though it’s objectively worse for the disabled it’s easier to clean, “in” with current design trends, and most importantly it’s cheaper to manufacture at scale)
Eh. I own a few old tools with manuals, and they actually have diagrams of the inner workings together with part numbers, some even have electrical diagrams with resistor values etc. All of the newer tools have a tiny useless “visit this website for more information” and 50% of the time it’s some bs about errors 1-10: restart device, 10-20 please contact a technician because opening the tool voids your warranty. I know dipshit, I don’t care about warranty cause I need the tool now or tomorrow, not in 3 months when you tell me it’s “unserviceable” or “uneconomical to repair” and I have to buy a new one.
I agree with the fact that there are not thorough diagrams with part numbers and wirijg diagrams like there used to be. A part of it is the fault of the manufacturer, and a part of it is just the way things are made now. Circuit boards are not as simple as they once were to include comprehensive wiring diagrams. They could absolutely break the modules into different boards and label the boards with different part numbers, so rather than replacing a resistor you’d just have to replace that board. It’s also not clear to me how many people actually have a comprehensive understanding of the item being sold.
But there is the obvious fact that companies want you to buy another one and not repair it. It’s often cheaper for them to not repair the product themselves, and just replace the entire unit. They dont keep a surplus of parts for repairs, nor do they want to spend the man power troubleshooting and fixing the issue. It’s just cheaper to replace it entirely. If they themselves will just replace rather than repair why would they bother keeping detailed documentation. If anyone cared for the enviornment more than money, they’d probably do it. But we all know how that goes.
I would also add that even previously they were prioritizing money. It was just cheaper for them to make it repairable, especially if they are going to offer some sort of warranty. It was also good for business since it made customers happy. I think at some point it became cheaper to do it the way we do now
LMBO, and sometimes it does come with a service manual, but you have to take the machine apart to find it like with my Samsung Washing machine
RTFM is an obnoxious retort for people, arguably in community, not to engage with a member of the community. I don’t mind reading the manual, but perhaps you can point me to where in the manual I could get further insight.
Reading a manual is also a skill. Being able to compartmentalize manual info into buckets of “obvious and I don’t need to read on”, “could be helpful”, “interesting, but it gets there I ain’t touching it” takes either training or just getting lucky after a certain number of reps.
Writing a manual is also a skill so starting with good ones help a lot.
RTFM is an obnoxious retort for people, arguably in community, not to engage with a member of the community.
I think there’s a low level of “How do I figure this out?” [generic] in which its good advice to ask “Does it say anything about this in the manual?” before you try and tear into a system as a third party giving advice.
I also think “I read the manual on my refrigerator” is some “I dare you to prove me wrong” horseshit. On the one hand, people don’t do this for a reason. Refrigerators simply aren’t that complicated to use. And the manual is rarely a smooth read, even for professionals. So its good advice, but not practical advice, better than half the time.
Reading a manual is also a skill. Being able to compartmentalize manual info into buckets of “obvious and I don’t need to read on”, “could be helpful”, “interesting, but it gets there I ain’t touching it” takes either training or just getting lucky after a certain number of reps.
Also, just a matter of free time and mental calories to burn. And hey, maybe if you’re a hobbyist who is hip deep in your Linux kernel because you eat this shit up, its the place you should have started. But also, Jesus Christ, maybe I just want a Mint instance to run a Jellyfin server. I’m not trying to get my master’s degree in this shit.
- It’s not impossible to learn if you read the manual. That’s how I learned.
- If you need my help cos you can’t figure it out, pay me. I don’t work for free.
- If you’re not paying me, I don’t owe you anything.
If you need my help cos you can’t figure it out, pay me
It’s so funny to see this on a sub dedicated to FOSS. Trying to imagine how many Pull Requests come with a bill attached.
FOSS doesn’t mean “we think people that make software should work for free because we like free shit”. It means:
-
When you want to modify something someone else made to your benefit you should recognize the work they did for you and pay it back in the form of contributing those changes back to the project. Beyond that, it also benefits you directly because someone else might build on your improvements (well, that, but also its easier to stop your changes from breaking in new versions of the software if other people are aware of them). Like the other commenter said, its communal development, sure lots of people do it at least partly because they want to make the world a better place, but the primary reason it works is because the various parties mutually benefit from mutual cooperation.
-
The belief that you should have complete control over your own computer, which you can’t do in practice without being able to view the source code of the software you run.
-
There’s a difference between helping out people who are interested in, and capable of learning, improving, contributing to something…
… and people who just want thing work, and are also almost always unwilling to put literally any thought into this process.
‘User Support’ and ‘Collaborative Development’ are not the same thing.
There’s also ‘the computer guy’ syndrome, where a group of people just expect a seemingly infinite amount of uncompensated time and mental effort from ‘the computer guy’ to solve all their problems, who then take this for granted, and become hostile and offended when you tell them ‘sorry, don’t have the time’, when ‘the computer guy’ has the audacity to… want to do something else at that moment.
So much this
Your second point is pretty much the most important skill learned in a humanities PhD, how to make your own learning path and learn what you need to know and what you should avoid.
This is the only comment I’ve seen in here that I’ve seen address this. The whole concept of RTFM is reactionary and ridiculous. That kind of thinking and behavior kept me at arm’s length from the Linux/tech community for many years. Still kinda does.
I mean in general, “read things -> learn” is a good approach to life imo.
Too long and difficult. I’ll let chat gpt tell me instead and read that between adverts on Love Island
we’re cooked
Part of the fun of buying a game was getting to RTFM on the way home.
I don’t Linux (yet), but I do work in Audio Production. I LIVE for good manuals. I always read them, and because of that, I’m always working from a starting line of intelligence with new gear. I keep manuals in pdf format on my computer in like borderline autistic order. RTFM is the best piece of advice anyone can have, ever.
I work in maintenance, people act like I’m doing magic, but 90% of the time all I’ve done is read the fucking manual, the other 10% is just basic awareness.
Its fucking impossible to get new kids to read the manual. They just resort to asking others for stuff they could look up. When I was new I asked the old timers as a last resort. Not because they’d be mean about it, but because I know I wouldn’t learn as well just being handed information.
It’s not a generational thing, I’ve worked with folks from all age ranges, old timers are just as bad about it as younger people and those from my age range, you’ve either got it or you don’t. Stupidity and arrogance are human traits, not generational ones.
It’s literally all this, all the way down until the turtles.
I hardly think memorizing every useless fact in a manual and blowing the technician is the best way to learn. In Linux I encounter problems and seek the answers then I know how to apply this knowledge in the future. This isn’t dynastic China where we must memorize the five great books (/usr/bin, fridge, stove, furnace, and the analects) in order to progress in life.
When you were partying
I read the fucking manual.
When you were having premarital sex
I mastered reading the fucking manual.
While you wasted your days at the gym in pursuit of vanity
I cultivated READ THE FUCKING MANUAL.
And now that the world is on fire and the barbarians are at the gate you have the audacity to come to me for help?
My internet is broken. Can you have a look?
Can’t have friends asking you for help if you don’t have friends.
RTFM
this joke is way older than HTML
I don’t bother with manuals any more. I never manage to retain much information unless I need it right now. Way easier to just fumble along and find what I need when I need it and cobble together a half-baked “understanding”.
Should go get some ADHD meds one day.
TLDR should be installed on every operating system ever. https://github.com/tldr-pages/tldr
Tealdeer is a good choice too as it’s a faster implementation of tldr, written in Rust:
My folks bought a new EV recently and my dad was unable to figure anything out for days. I hopped in and was doing everything he wanted in minutes.
“How the hell did you do all that‽”
“I RTFM Dad”
“Reading! Kids, nowadays (sigh).”
try to RTFM for Microsoft…lol shits updated too much and all the old information is still there and outdated. convoluted mess of shit is all they are
still, RTFM…always
In order to RTFM one must first WTFM
Have you tried sfc /scannow?
I just want to say I’m glad other people understand how ridiculous of a suggestion this is for fixing Windows problems. It has become such a low effort nonsensical approach because people don’t truly understand what it does and it feels like doing something. It’s the new ‘have you tried turning it off and on again.’ dism and sfc. Then when someone mentions how absurd the thinking is that this fixes anything but a small negligible fraction of issues, someone always chimes in how there was this one time where it worked for them. Perpetuating this low effort, almost useless approach to troubleshooting. I’ve fixed more issues with BIOS updates than I have with either of those tools.
my first go to for fixing every issue I have with a windows component
- sfc /scannow
- dism /online /cleanup-image /restorehealth
the amount of time that last command has fixed a core issue with the system is shocking but god that command takes forever
I’ve just reinstalled windows every few years to deal with the unfixable issues
Having gotten used to Linux, this comes across as such a bizarre concept.
Like hearing that someone demolishes and rebuilds their house every few years because it’s such a shitty house that it keeps developing issues that can’t be fixed any other way.
Keeping the common user stupid is the better part of Mickeysoft’s business model. The proposed solution for every problem is guessing what MS’ silly nomenclature might actually mean while poking around in GUIs that do nothing but keep you busy. Then buy something from their app store. RTFM doesn’t work in a system that’s inconsistent and undocumented by design. That’s not the fault of RTFM as a concept but a travesty of it.
Unironically, if you bing Windows API related queries rather than googling them, you’re much more likely to find a relevant manual page that answers your question clearly. I wouldn’t be surprised if Google is actively worsening Windows-related queries to make Windows look bad and sell Android devices and Chromebooks. Another example is that googling msvcp140.dll not found or similar queries gives you loads of dodgy download this individual DLL here and put it in System32 and we promise we’ve not tampered with it websites instead of the page for the universal MSVC redistributable installer that’s the only supported way to get the DLL (and a bunch of other related ones) as an end user.
As for silly nomenclature, generally on Windows, API functions are much more likely to describe what they do and much less likely to be a town in Wales. If you don’t already know what
fstatdoes, it’s much easier to guess thatGetFileTimewould be the right function to get a file’s last modification time thanfstat, for example.I have been told that the reason their publically available training, problem solving, and educational material is so terrible is because there is a secret printed guidebook somewhere that makes everything make sense and if everyone had it it could negatively impact the windows economy.
I do not know if that is true, but I have been told it and it does kind of explain why sites like learn.microsoft.com are so terrible that I would rather reread the world book encyclopedia 1969 edition from A to Z including the index than try to figure out how to run a single powershell command from the educational materials available on that site.
Or the documentation is basically empty and tells you nothing at all (looking at you WinRT…)
This is a problem with more than just Microsoft. Any software (game, application, library, whatever) that has had many years of updates some of which are breaking, will have this problem with docs.
Oh you are using version 5.5.24 of xyzlib? All these docs are a mixture of stuff when 4.2.57 was out and stuff someone tried to update when 7.5.14 released.
MSFT’s strategy is anti-documentation.
You want help?
Money Please!
(For clarity, I am being cheeky, but I am not joking.)
