- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
- europe@feddit.org
- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
- europe@feddit.org
- Technically, the new law will raise the legal age requirement in the UK for buying cigarettes, cigars or tobacco, which is currently 18, by one year in every subsequent year, starting on January 1, 2027
- This will effectively mean that people born on or after January 1, 2009 will never be eligible to buy them
- Retailers will face financial penalties for selling the products to those not entitled to them
- The government will also be empowered to impose a new registration system for smoking and vaping products entering the country, seeking to improve oversight
- The bill will expand the UK’s indoor smoking ban to a series of outdoor public spaces, for instance in children’s playgrounds, outside schools and hospitals
- Most indoor spaces that are designated smoke-free will become vape-free as well
- Smoking in designated areas outside pubs and bars and other hospitality settings will remain permissible
- Smoking and vaping will remain legal in people’s homes
- Vaping will become illegal in cars if someone under the age of 18 is inside, to match existing rules on smoking
- Advertising for smoking and vaping products will be banned
- People aged 18 or older will remain eligible to purchase vaping products, but some items targeted at younger consumers like disposable vapes have already been outlawed as part of the program
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Well there’s certainly no way this will create a black market, and become impossible to enforce!
There surely will become somewhat of a black market, but not in the same way as weed or harder drugs. Smoking doesn’t really give you a buzz except for the first few times, so people won’t go to the black market for the effect, but rather to keep the withdrawels at bay. It would seem incredibly silly to buy cigarettes like people buy weed, when all it really does for a first timer is taste horrible, make you cough, and if you actually manage to inhale, make you a bit dizzy. Sure, some people from 2009 and onwards will start to smoke, but it’ll be a whole lot less people than today.
You realize in the 1930s there was a black market for cigerettes when they weren’t even illegal, right?
Mafias had support from the people, because mobs supplied booze, which WAS illegal. They made so much money from that, they started robbing cigerette trucks. Then selling legal cigerettes, at full cost, simply because the people trusted the mob over the government.
There’s a huge black market for tobacco products here in Australia and it’s completely legal, simply having the tax on it so high has led to massive smuggling operations, black market cigarettes in many convenience stores, and a fire bombing epidemic of those same convenience stores for carrying competitors black market cigs. It doesn’t even need to be illegal. Just too expensive.
Yup, a local substance plug sells cigarettes in addition to other goods and services, the cigarettes are less than the shops.
1930s didnt have overwhelming evidence that smoking was stupid, addictive, and disastrously dangerous to your health.
Smoking doesnt produce the same euphoria and consistency of drugs on the current blackarket. The juice wont be worth the squeeze. Financially, there wont be enough “consumers” for a cigarette black market.
I think you misunderestimate how addictive cigerettes are. My friends mom goes through $80 worth of cigerettes every 2-3 days.
Right,but theyre not banning it for people like her… theyre banning it for people born after 2008. Is your mom 18 years old?
Are you claiming that minors don’t smoke because it’s not legal? That’s what you’re going with?
God youre annoying.
Youre just looking to be combative. Youre cool dude, so cool, just so so cool that you should go back to reddit. So fucking cool how you intentionally need to argue the most braindead niche “uhm actually” talking point you can muster.
How much is a packet there?
About $8, but she smokes 5-8 packs a day.
Holy shitballs.
Is she just smoking nonstop the whole day?
5-8 packs a day.
I can’t see how this is even possible for a couple, much less one person.
I GREW UP IN A HOUSE OF CHAIN SMOKERS, my older sister and brother and both parents.
Are you sure about this or just guestimating?
Real question- is that volume or branding? Depending on where you are/what brand, that might be a 1.5-2 pack a day habit of higher quality smokes; not unheard of for a typical heavy smoker. If you’re spending that much on ass-end packs that cost you $6/ea, that’s pushing 4 packs a day, which is like legendary status few can achieve anymore.
Oh, I thought you were replying to thr other message. Still, it’s just below here, where I said she smokes 5-8 packs a day.
She also has this bag of loose tabacco where she rolls her own. She uses that when she can’t afford marlborrow.
There already is a big, thriving black market for cigarettes in the EU country I’m in, simply due to high tobacco taxes. I can only assume the same will be true for other places that tax similarly. Are you really saying that an outright ban won’t result in a greater unmet demand, and thus more customers shopping at the black markets? It sounds unlikely to me that black market dealers will close up shop, because of a ban on the legal sale of cigarettes. The black market is already banned, but that’s not exactly stopping them.
Cigarette companies add things to make them more addictive, including chemical flavorings and extra nicotine. It doesn’t negate what you said, but enhances it.
Sure, but a lot has changed since then, and while that totally could happen, I’m doubting it’ll be widespread in any way.
“yeah, but, nah, trust me bro”
would have been a better response. At least build your conclusion from something. You’re responding to someone giving a historical example.
“Times are different” just means it could be worse or better. It doesn’t conclude which or to what degree. You didn’t say anything.
I think it might be different nowadays. We know now that smoking causes cancer. Also the world is in color, which makes not smoking more enjoyable.
That must explain the reason for having the “T” in ATF then.
No no no. You’re missing the H.
Aqua Teen Hunger Force.
They’re number one in the hood, G!
Mate, you got no fucking clue. This will create entire new organised crime markets.
Maybe at first, yeah. But in 50 years, when almost nobody under 60 smokes and it’s prohibited everywhere, who would go out of their way to start this particular habit?
As a lifelong smoker, one of the hardest hurdle to quitting is going out, having a couple of drinks, then seeing other people smoke and resisting the urge to go buy an easily available pack.
Exactly.
Do you remember being a teenager? You’re describing something that is extremely addictive AND the government is banning you from trying it because you were born too late. This is just asking for a shit show. I’d rather the cigs be guaranteed not to contain lead (or whatever). Forcing a black market just removes all regulation on the vice. Each year that market will get larger. It’s literally a guaranteed increase of demand in the black market over time.
I really think the methods used in the US to reduce smoking really need to be duplicated in other countries. The US literally has like one good thing that we got right somehow. In comparison to Asia or a lot of Europe I never see people smoking.
Vapes are a whole different story. But, even before vapes were a thing the US really did a good job at making smoking socially unacceptable through multiple policies.
We literally have examples of methods that work well AND methods that don’t. Outright bans never work with vices.
Outright bans never work with vices.
It can’t be taken 1:1. Vices being banned in the past was typically because legislators saw them as productivity drains, despite the pleasure it provided. Therefore making those bans inherently tyrannical to habitual users and certain non-users, incentivizing disobedience.
But this time, it’s being banned for a group that’s not habitually using already, meaning extraordinary reasons would require them to become habitual users in the first place. And smoking is typically not very pleasant at the start to begin with, so there’s little incentive to start. And, unlike in the past, smoking is no longer present everywhere. And of course there’s the knowledge that it will give you cancer and cut your lifespan.
There’s just not much enjoyment left, so even if 1% of those affected by the rolling ban slip through the cracks with an underground market, there isn’t the room for growth that sustains or spreads an illegal market like for eg. recreational drugs. Which is why those bans need to be enforced to perfection to have a chance to work, which they never do, and which is why they never work.
There are so many ways for people to harm themselves that we don’t need to ban because they come with severe risk to the person, so they self regulate. The only reason smoking needs that ban is because of how widespread smoking was, and so even if way less people start smoking than before, that’s still way too many people. A ban just needs to be successful at getting far less people to start, not absolutely halt every single usage, and eventually it will fade from culture on it’s own.
EDIT: Slight corrections. But kinda wild to get overly downvoted for the thing pretty much everyone else is saying in this thread, just with a little more in-depth analysis. Come out and tell me where I’m wrong, I don’t think you can.
I wouldn’t be suprised if smoking turns into one of those things that old people do, not cool at all
In the states, it already seems like it is. Vaping is an all-generations hobby still
I never understood the “banning doesn’t work” argument. The reason we banned heroin and methamphetamine is because use was rampant without prescriptions. You’d have to be stupid to think that meth at Walmart wouldn’t cause an increase in usage.
… regardless, in this situation prohibition would be effective. Vapes are superior nicotine delivery systems. After years of trying to quit, I transitioned from tobacco in less than a week. Not having the fear of death hanging over me is an indescribable relief.
They don’t give you a buzz right now. You think prohibition liquor was just as safe as what was produced afterwards, what with all those ridiculous safety regulations gone?
OMG so many dead people from radiator gin.
Look at the lengths people go for every small thing that they can’t have or simply get the option to pay less for it. It’s not a matter of what that thing gives and in what strength, simply if there is demand there will be supply.
Come to Australia. A legit carton of fags is about 90% tax, and dodgy darts are outselling them. Vapes are prescription-only. No doctor will prescribe it, and no pharmacy will dispense it. So vapes are effectively banned too.
The black market is huge.
At the current exchange rate, a 20 pack goes for £25 GBP:
no doctor will prescribe it
Ha this tracks with my mate getting knocked back on this by our GP, who is also a medcan AP. He said go see another doctor for that.
I actually suggested it to him because he needs to give the fucking things up. This might be why, he mightn’t want to prescribe it.
Why will no doctor prescribe them? They are much healthier than smoking. And all the patient has to do is say they’re trying to quit smoking.
Same reason people in the UK think cocaine is safer then cannabis, public stigma.
Please tell me this is a joke. Is it because all you Europeans roll your joints with tobacco?
The UK has this weird thing about cannabis, while treating cocaine as a drug of “productive” people. It is getting better (the UK has a 48% of people supporting legislation, one the lowest in the western world but moving towards the positive) the media is not helping the stigma however:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/35820327/super-strength-cannabis-crimewave-britain-streets/
I think a lot of it is because pharmacies and doctors didn’t want this thrust upon them.
This was an amendment to a really shitty vape ban bill which blew the whole black market up further than it was. The whole thing should never have been passed.
Lucky country policy
Holy smokes! That’s more than double the local plug! Roll up jimpson weed or rabbit tobacco (or questionable adulterated weed) is probably what locals here would do.
Oh no. Whatever will we do. No smoking in public places or around me but people will still smoke at home nowhere near me.
Truly it will be unbearable.
So terrible.
i knew which corner stores to get smokes at before i was 18.
the process regardless is very simple:
- ask for a pack of camels
- present your legitimate id saying you’re 16 or whatever
- ??? thanks
they need to look at an ID for the camera but that’s all
also, once I became an adult smoking wasn’t that fun anymore and i quit
What enforcement? Anyone born after 2008 would be at most 17. Not sure about British law, but assuming majority is at 18, they weren’t supposed to smoke anyway. It creates no black market that doesn’t already exist.
You realize this law keeps rolling, right? So today, a 17 year old is ineligable because he’s not 18. But a year from now that same 17 year old is now 18, but becomes ineligable because they aren’t 19. And when they turn 19, they aren’t 20. And 10 years from now the 17 year old today would be 27, ineligable because he’s not 28.
That’s how it creates a black market.
Like a ladder that is being constantly pulled up.
Right, but the idea is that most people under 18 haven’t already started smoking because it’s illegal and inconvenient. So you just keep that ball rolling for anyone who hasn’t started.
You think people under the age of 18 don’t smoke? When I was in 6th grade (so 12 years old) I used to make about $100 a week selling cigerettes individually for $1 per cigerette. This was in the mid 90s, so adjusted for inflation that would be like $270 a week today.
And all I did was walk up and down the sidewalks, and find half smoked cigerettes. Stole individual cigerettes from adults packs. And bought them from vending machines.
I don’t smoke, and never did, but it was easy money selling stolen cigerettes to 12 year olds. The only reason I ever stopped is I grew up. It would be a LOT more suspicious seeing a 42 year old today walking the halls of a school trying to peddle cigerettes to kids.
Plus, teens today see cigerettes as old guard. They’re all about vapes today.
Which is getting off topic. The point is, teenagers smoke. Teenagers drink. None of it is legal. Yet it always happens in every generation.
The only thing the youth of today do anything different from literally every generation before them, is they aren’t having sex with each other. Which makes me glad I’m 42, and was young 30 years ago.
Surely this won’t establish avenues for kids to get harder drugs once they get the black market vapes!
once they get the black market vapes!
Vapes are not banned under the law.
But wouldn’t those people just vape instead? Which is not healthy, but is still healthier than tobacco.
Only healthier if you avoid the additives. Shit like essential oils and flavorings does not belong in your lungs.
I’m not sure about the oils, but the cadmium and lead aren’t great.
Exactly!
It’s not. It’s just too new to have studies confirmed. These kids that are in their early 20s may have been vaping since as young as 14, but that still 8 years at most, and that’s stretching it in both directions.
I would say those studies won’t come out until they’re in their 70s, or maybe already dead.
Vaping will cause cancer just the same as cigerettes. You’re inhaling unnatural addictive chemicals. In the case of nicotine, it’s artificially added to some/most vapes. We know how bad that stuff is. A vape is nothing more then an unnatural liquid chemical compound, which is then burned and smoked. Tobacco is a leaf, vapes are a liquid. In both cases they add a shitload of unhealthy compounds.
Hell, at this point WATER is unhealthy! Tons of microplastics in all water.
The unhealthiness of the chemicals in cigarette smoke is not subtle. I would be surprised if the vapes turned out to be just as unhealthy.
unnatural addictive chemicals
Using “unnatural” as the main adjective to argue for something being unhealthy is a huge red flag for pseudoscience. Unnatural is not a synonym for dangerous.
As an example, the 100% natural chemicals in even ecologically grown cigarettes are perfectly capable of being extremely dangerous.
Combustion in and of itself creates a lot of bad shit, tobacco or otherwise. The smoke from the paper itself is harmful.
Not just chemicals, but a lot of particulates.
We’ve been scrutinizing vapes for decades. If there was any noticeable health complications from vaping, we would know.
“But we didn’t know cigarettes caused cancer until like the 70’s!”
That’s because the concept of writing stuff down on a clipboard is astonishingly new
- People downvoting in their feels, but you aren’t wrong.
Their weird hang up over ‘unnatural’ chemicals is complete nonsense.
Vapes don’t produce smoke but vapor, i.e. nothing “burns”. And inhaling smoke is by far the most harmful aspect of using cigarettes.
Not saying nicotine or vaping is harmless, but I’d be very surprised if vaping turns out to be as dangerous as smoking.
How I wish there was a proper standardization of formulation and safe limits, because some of the vape juice I’ve seen are mostly made in-house and often included unwanted unlisted additives and ingredients.
Just ban smoking in public places. I don’t want people blowing smoke at me when I’m walking down the street or when I’m siting outside drinking coffee. If they want to smoke in their apartment or their car it’s their business. It would be easier to fight people smoking in the street than check what age every smoker is.
in their apartment
No! This is a huge problem in itself unless they have their own house. The smoke gets into the hallways and into other apartments as well, and it’s fucking awful. Even just smoking on the balcony the smoke gets inside neighboring apartments, having lived through that. I have asthma and everyone smoking inside apartments deserves a kick to the shin
Shitty neighbors are a separate issues. It’s up to the landlords and residents to solve this.
The common solution around here has been the apartment complexes banning smoking not only inside but also on the premises outside completely, so it’s getting better these days
Exactly this. On top of being liberticide and hypocritical (alcohol is just as dangerous, if not more dangerous of a drug), it’s extremely hard to enforce.
Ban smoking anywhere that is not your home, problem solved
Maybe, but if you have a drink, it doesn’t force me to also be having a drink just by being nearby.
The healthcare costs are collectively borne by the public, no matter where you smoke. And indirect damage for kids and others in the same household should also not be underestimated.
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All healthcare costs are borne collectively. Being obese increases healthcare costs. Extreme sports increase healthcare costs. Alcohol increases costs. Why ban smoking for that reason but not the other?
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So “save the children” is ok in that context? We don’t trust parents now and should be banning things that can hurt kids? Like porn, social media or sugar?
What the UK did is a step in the right direction. You can’t argue that this is only valid if they ban the other things you listed as well. You need to start somewhere. Norway for example went a different route and increased taxes on alcohol and sugar to reach a healthier population
I’m not saying it’s all or nothing. I’m saying that banning things that raise healthcare costs is silly. Lots of people do things that raise healthcare costs. I don’t think that smokers should be punished for raising healthcare costs while I’m allowed to practice high risk sports. It’s unfair.
What Norway did is completely different as it still leaves it up to people. You promote good habits, not criminalize bad ones.
Yeah I think the route of Norway makes more sense. Prohibition failed historically multiple times. I think education and factful discussions (pros/cons) without irrational condemning drugs would actually be a sustainable long term solution for addiction (because let’s face it, it’s mostly about unhealthy addiction).
Just legalise all kinds of substances without e.g. ads and other measures that effectively reduce the issue. And give proper education early (ideally from long term addicts, so that it’s believable and properly shows the issues).
We see with weed, opiates and currently growing cocaine where uncontrolled markets go and promote addiction…
I doubt that this will be much different with tobacco in a prohibited future…
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Cigarette smokers are actually supporting pension plans because they die fast and cheap before they see benefits.
This seems like a much more reasonable, enforceable, and frankly more effective approach. It also seems more in line with respecting personal freedoms to do things even that harm yourself so long as no one else is being harmed.
I am a tankie - literally as far from a libertarian as you can get - and even I am struck by the seeming lack of concern over stripping away the freedoms of one demographic in particular. Honestly I’d prefer to see cigarettes banned outright than to say some people can buy them while others can’t. Gonna be weird in like 2050 when a 43 year old can buy smokes but a 42 year old can’t.
Gonna be weird in like 2050 when a 43 year old can buy smokes but a 42 year old can’t.
Exactly, how will they enforce it in like 10-20 years? Police will stop and check everyone who’s looking too young to smoke? Some young looking guy in his 30 will have to show his ID to cops all the time? Right now it’s working because shop owners enforce it, parents enforce it and you can generally spot kids when they are hanging out. Parents don’t usually buy cigarettes for their kids but what if a 30 year old will buy cigarettes for their friend or spouse that’s 29 and can’t legally smoke?
The law just makes it illegal to purchase, not illegal to consume.
Still dumb though.
I didn’t realise people actually self-identified as tankies. That’s really interesting. Thank you for broadening my conceptions.
… public space…
Yes, public spaces too.
You understand what public means right?
Yes, totally.
So you want to regulate… what people… animals… do outside… in nature… our natural habitat… the area with the most air flow imaginable… and that’s still a problem… get over yourself
Smoking IS banned in public places. Has been since 2006 in Scotland and 2008 across the whole of the UK.
Pretty sure it’s only banned in indoor public spaces. Outdoor locations like bus stops and the like seem to still be fair game.
Removed by mod
A lot of people here are happy to see others lose a freedom that they themselves were never going to exercise.
Smokers are taking away my freedom to breathe clean air
No, they aren’t.
I hate smoking. I hate the smell when assholes smoke near my house.
Those people aren’t all smokers.
You must have never walked around a busy street or a public transport station.
Fr. I’m about as antismoking as it gets, but roping it off as a privilege only allotted to the older generations is about the stupidest thing you could possibly due right now with the currently volatile state of youth culture in the UK. It’s just another drop in the bucket for future gen Z Reform voters.
Keep stirring the pot guys, I’m sure there will be absolutely no snowballed consequences lol
Why is my freedom to build bombs in my basement being overridden?
Oh that’s right, because laws are ultimately created based on relative perceptions of risks and social acceptance of the populace (generally, in a democratic society, there are a lot of exceptions here).
Note for my FBI agent : I’m not building bombs in my basement, I’m using that as an example of why we have laws at all.
Well to be honest, there is an argument for letting you build bombs in your basement. A bullet is effectively a bomb. Plenty of people make their own bullets/shells. Should they be forced to buy those from a company?
There is nuance to just about everything.
Laws should be restricted to protecting people from other people, not from themselves.Sure there is an argument for letting me do anything, but when you keep persuing and reducing the argument, it eventually boils down to “Why do we even have laws at all?”
The answer to that question is “because we as a society decided to.” By their very nature, laws created by people are arbitrary and intangible, their only actual effect is derived from society’s willingness to actually enforce them.
If the laws were actually agreed upon by the people… but they aren’t. And most are really to protect businesses, not people.
But no, it doesn’t boil down to why have laws at all. Laws should protect people’s rights. Like the right to not get murdered. But that’s not what this is.
But no, it doesn’t boil down to why have laws at all.
Okay, let’s play this out. Laws against murder remove my right to murder people. Just because you weren’t going to use that right doesn’t mean that I wasn’t going to.
Maybe you came in on a side thread. The only rights that should be considered for law are rights that impact others. It’s still a super large list. But your right to snoke in you basement isn’t on it. Your right to murder is.
It has nothing to do with using it or not. Just who it impacts directly.People smoking in their basements present a fire hazard, major issue if you live with other people.
People smoking (at all) creates second-hand smoke, which harms the people that come into them, or their spaces (like say, a contractor, or first responders, utility technicians…)
People who smoke end up using more critical and limited medical resources because of their habits.
I’m not as daft as to say that smoking harms to the same degree as outright murder, but it’s equally stupid, if not more so, to say that smoking (even in your basement by yourself) harms no one else.
Also…
The only rights that should be considered for law are rights that impact others.
Who decided what rights should be considered for laws?
I’ll give you a hint; it’s not some universal property of the universe, nor a divine command.
At some point in time, the society I live in established that murder is against the law, and that is the sole reason I’m not allowed to murder anyone. My “right” to murder was just as valid as my “right” to smoke in my basement until there was a law created that defined (or changed) those “rights”.
So, back to my still very relevant comment from earlier…
But no, it doesn’t boil down to why have laws at all.
Okay, let’s play this out. Laws against murder remove my right to murder people. Just because you weren’t going to use that right doesn’t mean that I wasn’t going to.
Plenty of people make their own bullets/shells
For very, very small definitions of “plenty”.
Sure, in that example, plenty is small. But who decides how small a group has to be to be allowed to take their rights away when they have committed no crime.
If a law is passed making what they’re doing illegal and they continue to do it, then they are committing a crime.
You really wrote that right? So don’t like someones rights. Justify taking them away because you wrote a law to make what they were doing a crime. It wasn’t a crime until you decided it was okay to take their rights away. So they hadn’t committed a crime when you made the law.
“Rights” are just things that aren’t outlawed. Do you have a right to commit murder, and are upset that the government has outlawed it?
A bullet isn’t even remotely “effectively a bomb.”
But the things you use can also be made into a bomb just by putting them in a pipe instead. Where is the line? Who decides?
Lots of things are made from the same ingredients. That doesn’t mean they’re the same thing.
Sure but how do you plan to make a law that makes it illegal to make bombs in your basement?
That’s already a law in many places.
But you’ve never had that freedom. Do you really not see the difference between taking away freedom that people have had for thousands of years and a hypothetical that nobody has ever had?
People who were not permitted to buy tobacco and vape products are not losing a freedom they had either.
Regardless, laws are written and removed constantly throughout our lifetime. It’s not legal for me to park where I used to, it’s not legal for me to bring a big bottle of orange juice or a tube of toothpaste on a plane anymore. The fact that things can become illegal or legal is a necessary consequences of having laws that can be changed.
Also, you could legally make your own explosives right up until there was a law passed that made it illegal. There isn’t some universal property that says humans aren’t allowed to make explodey shit.
Yes, they literally are losing that freedom. Just because it may come later in life, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Just remember that laws are not inherently moral or ethical. What people do in their own time in their own space is their own business, as long as they’re not doing it in a way that puts other people in danger. This is purely about control and you’re just wolfing that boot down.
What people do in their own time in their own space is their own business, as long as they’re not doing it in a way that puts other people in danger.
Smoking does put other people in danger. So does driving, or skipping vaccines.
Just remember that laws are not inherently moral or ethical.
Yes… That’s kinda my whole point. The sole basis for a law is if people decide to enact it and then enforce it.
Just because it may come later in life, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
You understand that if we change laws, then things that were previously legal will become illegal and vis versa? This avenue of argument ends in “Laws can never be created, removed, or changed.”
I wish this ban was in effect when my stupid cunt of an adolescent brain thought starting smoking would be a good idea.
And also this freedom to increase your chances of lung cancer for litterally no reason at all doesn’t only affect the smoker, but everybody in the general area of said smoker. What about their freedom to breathe clean air.
The world changes, handle it. Older generations took away younger generation’s freedom to have a perspective on any kind of affordable housing.
I don’t think taking away their freedom to make an objectively dumb and pointless choice for their health and finances moves the needle on the scale of problems we are facing.
Their freedom to do something without any significant benefit costs a lot of money for healthcare. Money I pay as taxes.
Going to get down voted to hell and back for this I expect, but hey, different opinions generate discussion right?
This is good legislation for the environment, for non-smokers, for the NHS, and has zero negative impact on smokers. The ONLY parties I see really hurt by this are tobacco companies, since retailers make minimal margins on tobacco.
The constant use of the word freedom in the thread comments just seems odd to me. This isn’t a question of freedom, and the comments mostly seem to ignore the paradox of tolerance as it applies to antisocial activity. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance. Individual freedoms have limits and must end at the boundary of another persons personal space and freedoms. That’s why smoking is banned in confined public places.
Its all very well to say tax the shit out of it and fund the NHS, but that will feel pretty shit when your parent/partner/child has to wait for an operation because the queue is full of smokers who are entitled to that spot by having paid for it. Which also veers dangerously close to creating paid tracks within the public national health service.
Now, this is a good thing, but I can’t help but imagine in 2099, a 90yr old begging their friends to sell them a pack
Vaping is still legal. Why wouldn’t he just get his nicotine high from a vape?
Same reason my smoker friend tells me he hates vaping: “it just hits different”
But having to use a shitty black market for cigarettes every day would surely motivate most of them to try to learn to love the vape.
The black market would then only be supported by irredeemable vape haters. Who got hooked on cigarettes while never in their life being able to buy them legally. Which doesn’t seem like a big market to me - so might not be big enough to be profitable.
Black market encompasses all unregulated sales, most of which is just people selling to people they know, word of mouth etc.
black market would then only be supported by irredeemable vape haters
The black market is easily available to those who use something that can only be bought through it. You can only be introduced to something by someone who already has a connection and once you have that one connection, you often find more.
Sometimes the black market can actually even be more convenient than regulated shops, like soon people in the UK will have their local tobacco dude who’ll drop your stuff off at your doorstep
It does feel very different! Smoking is way worse for you and way nastier but it DOES feel ways that no amount of nicotine in a vape can feel.
Better they buy regulated weed, in edibles, oil, or otherwise.
Lol I see your an optimist when it comes to uk recreational
I mean, I do not think they will, just that that would be less bad.
I honestly don’t think this will lead to a massive black market like some people seem to think. I don’t see big profit margins that would make cigarettes an attractive thing to sell illegally. You can only make them so expensive if you can just find someone older to buy them for you for the normal price.
Besides, smoking is pretty shit really. There aren’t going to be loads of people willing to go through the hassle of getting cigarettes illegally when all they do is stink and give you cancer. Especially when the people who can’t buy them will mostly be people who haven’t had a chance to get addicted yet.
I think this will work and be a net positive in the long run.
the black market in france wich is simply the product of high tax on tobaco is estimate at 4 billion euro. So you think britain will not have the issue with a practie that is well spread there ? i think u are delusional
Besides, smoking is pretty shit really. There aren’t going to be loads of people willing to go through the hassle of getting cigarettes illegally when all they do is stink and give you cancer.
yeah like any drugs ???
I think this will work and be a net positive in the long run.
It wont, and the gov shouldnt have a word on those
You’ve obviously never been a nicotine addict. Nothing you said here would have stopped me from getting my drug, before I quit
I started smoking when I was 14. Smoked a pack a day for a while, smoked my last in my thirties.
The point of a rolling ban isn’t meant to make you quit, it’s to stop people from starting and it will work. Not for everyone, but for a lot of people it will.
Its taking away personal freedoms and works against a free market. Keep the government out of your personal choices.
Oh no, not the free market!
Where’s your line between “keeping the government out of your personal choices” vs. “regulations that keep us safe”? Like, I’m sure you’re ok with regulations that keep poisons like lead, arsenic, etc. out of consumable goods, right?
I kinda agree with the other commenter that said all drugs should be legalized, but also, I’ve had close personal experiences with how addictive and harmful nicotine is, so I can also understand why it would be the target of bans.
Things that you choose to consume aren’t the same as utilities.
Mkay but food isn’t a utility, and neither are cigarettes/cigars/vapes/etc, so I don’t really understand what you’re getting at here
End of the day it’s a question of personal freedoms
You choose to smoke. If someone wants to buy sawdust to put into their bread separately that’s fine. regulations are to stop a market from poisoning the base product, if the product is poison then it’s on the consumer.
Im all for that, honestly, but lets include all the drugs
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If the free market is so great where are the free market roads, or the free market fire fighters, or the free market court systems, or the free market affordable health care?
… okay… so let’s mix in local government, taxes, and legal systems?
I don’t even know what to say
Funny how many folks on lemmy are anti-freedom… you folks are nuts
But governments will continue to allow nicotine delivery devices like vapes and pouches.
They should be banning nicotine as a controlled drug. Take nicotine out and people will see no reason to smoke or vape. It’s been government sanctioned addiction for over 100 years.
You are looking at it from the perspective of someone who is already addicted, not from the perspective of an entire population of people who have never had access to legal cigarettes. This isn’t for people who are already addicted. This is to achieve fewer people from becoming addicted.
Yes, statistics show most smokers start smoking before the age of 16, so obtaining cigarettes legally isn’t stopping them. But the sheer number of smokers dropped when it became harder to find places to smoke after bar/restaurant/public area bans. It’s interesting looking at the trends of smokers over time. Adult use in the US has held a VERY consistent downward trend since the 1970s, holding around the same slope for 50 years. However, youth use dropped significantly right around the time cities and states implemented smoking bans in bars/restaurants/public areas. That is correlation, not necessarily causation, so I am not claiming it as fact.
I will say it is absolutely jarring to travel to Europe from the US. I travel a lot, and going from a city where very few people smoke (well, they smoke, just not tobacco) to almost any city in Europe is a shock to my nose. It doesn’t stop me visiting Europe every year, but man it does make walking on the streets there less enjoyable.
I believe in the freedom to choose what I do with my own body, Period.
While negatively impacting everyone around you.
People smoking in their homes is not impacting you.
If you live around people you must accept a level of smells and noise that offend you. That’s fucking life.
Cost of freedom
You favorite food negatively impacts me, it stinks and it needs to be banned. See how dumb that sounds?
You’re right, you do sound dumb saying that. Mostly because of how stupidly unrelated it is when you think you are sounding smart.
If you honestly can’t understand the difference between your personal choice causing lung cancer in kids nearby you and you not liking the smell of my cheese pizza, then there is no point even talking to you.
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This. Furthermore, because the date is fixed, a decade from now, only middle aged people will smoke in public. I really doubt if youngsters find it appealing at that time, to adopt a habit associated with the elderly.
middle aged people
associated with the elderly
Oof, right in my middle-aged bones
Imagine if they did the same for alcohol :)
Fun fact, Eric Garner was killed for illegally selling cigarettes. He was selling loosies outside of drug stores and owners had repeatedly complained about him doing that.
Ok. I’m stretching the definition of fun here. And, to be clear, I also don’t think there will be a huge black market for cigarettes with this law, just that there already is one, kind of.
I know. People already sell illegally imported cigarettes too, but I don’t think it’s nearly as problematic as the black market for other drugs is.
Eric Garner was killed for being black and inconveniencing the cops. The loosies were just the thing that put him on the radar.
I spent a few months in South Korea and packs of smokes there were like 2 bucks and change (Seoul and Gwangju). In USA a decent pack of 72s is like 8 -10 bucks, federal tax is a buck and change per pack with state taxes being 2$+ per pack. That means that on average the consumer is paying nearly 40% in taxes to the government. Black market smokes ABSOLUTELY will provide good margins, selling without tax at taxed price or greater will net black market sellers nearly double their money on each sale which is significantly greater than a lot of the easier to sell drugs. Hell when I sold weed before it got legalized I typically made 25-30% mark up unless I sold pennyweight but then it was a hassle. In the 90s when taxes were hiked on tobacco people were selling black market cartons for less than stores could with tax and making money hand over fist, it happened because of a tax HIKE not a ban! And YOU think smoking is shit, I think smoking crack rocks is shit but people still love it. Not advocating for shit here, just pointing out that there has, is, and will be a black market for tobacco and just about everything else. I have bought illegal moonshine, tax free darts off an old head, and various illicit substances without giving my genocidal gov a penny for it! Of course now I pay tax on weed I buy legally… But I’m getting old and don’t want to take as many risks when there’s a legal alternative.
I’m not even a regular smoker, but sure as fuck the day will come when I would kill to have a cigarette.
I don’t smoke, but this is stupid.
You can’t save people from themselves.
Of course you can. Over time fewer and fewer people will smoke.
The number of smokers have been going down for a long time now.
Right along with your personal freedoms, what a great deal
Where’s my personal freedom as a non smoker?
Because obviously, most smokers don’t give a two sh*ts about other people
Freedom works both ways
It’s like arguing people should be free to drive drunk.
How? Drunk driving presents a clear and present danger, someone smoking on the roof or in their yard or in dinner alley isn’t a threat to anyone.
Its nothing like that at all
No one is making it illegal to be a non smoker, and banning some people from purchasing it doesn’t stop people from smoking around you. So congrats you gained nothing and lost nothing but a freedom.
Personal freedom to pollute the bloodstream of a child before it is born, personal freedom to cause lung disease in people who have to live around smokers.
Banning drunk driving is another attack on personal freedoms?
Banning drunk driving is a false equivelance. A better analogy would be banning alcohol.
… pick a topic
Whatever we are doing to not turn into a shithole like America seems to be working.
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From what I’ve heard, it absolutely isn’t. The uk is just as authoritarian and backwards, the only thing it has doing for it is a lack of weapons (apparently to an absurd extent).
UK based here. sorry to tell you that your sources of information are really poor.
Because of awareness, social stigma, and government bans on tobacco propaganda advertising, not government sales bans.
Look at the middle east and south asia, smoking is bigger than ever, it’s like the US in 60s, but worse.
If people want to smoke, government bans won’t stop them. Yes, being easy and legal to get makes more people likely to get it, but you won’t achieve zero smoking by banning it, you’ll just increase black market sales.
Is the illegal sale and organized crime that comes with it worth the reduction of legal consumers?
It feels like you’re saying that this legislation is stupid because some people will smoke anyway. And I think that’s not a fair argument. I don’t think anyone claims that this will get rid of smoking entirely, much like outlawing murder will not get rid of all murders. But I do think this will reduce the number of smokers born after 2008.
If you reduce the number of opportunities someone has to start smoking, you will reduce the number of smokers. At least, this makes intuitive sense to me. I don’t have any data to back it up. But neither do you, so we’re tied there I guess. Or do you? I’m happy to change my mind on this.
Good. It’ll cut down healthcare costs
Hard unnuanced bans on vices never work and it’s insane that people think that this time it will.
You say that it’ll cut down on healthcare costs but how much will now be spent on enforcement? Tobacco use was already out of style and smoking seen as obnoxious and uncool but now it’ll be seen as a mysterious and forbidden thing. Look at cannabis use among youth in Canada after legalisation if you want an example. People will continue to smoke tobacco but now that tobacco will all be unregulated black market stuff bought from some sketchy guy who can offer you any number of other unregulated, untested and more dangerous drugs
This won’t solve anything, it will only create a black market and the vape industry will gain new customers.
The UK is on a wave of embracing ideas that have already proven to be failures at other places and other times, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if they instituted Prohibition.
That’s probably what this is about. The UK has universal healthcare, which means poor health costs them more money. I wish Americans would understand this.
Unfortunately it’ll also cut down tax revenue.
Don’t worry, poor people taxes will be raised elsewhere.
People who live longer get other age related illness.
It’s not ethical but sure to relatively quick deaths and a lifetime of paying way more tax than non smokers there is an argument to be made that smokers are cheaper for the healthcare system than non smokers.
Smoking sucks and I’m glad I’ve never done it, but I’m worried that this will push even more people to the far right because they will feel patronized as fuck.
Also not sure if a flourishing black market is much better. Seems like an enormous source of income for organized crime which might not be the best thing.
Imo it would be much better to only ban it at places where there are a lot of people and do proper education in schools so that children actually understand why it’s a terrible idea.
Smoking is bad, but prohibition of drugs just drives them underground and denies freedom. Bad call UK
What is this? Good news? On my timeline!!! In this economy!!!
RIGHT IN FRONT OF MY DOOMSCROLLING?
Did they look at Australia and the colossal failure trying the same thing, and thought “but we will be different”?
I think you are thinking of New Zealand. The push didnt fail because it was tough, it failed because one of the political parties currently in power ( New Zealand First) has Phillip Morris lobbyists so far up its ass they are breathing for two.
New Zealand First had the law reverted and then Casey Costello, who is Associate Health Minister, gave tax breaks to companies offering “heated tobacco products” which is only Phillip Morris.
Lifted a ban on vapes without removable batteries so Phillip Morris could release their HTP
And the only thing in this blatent corruption scandel that they got in the neck was the handling of some fudged numbers and dodgy conclusions that Miss Costello says she “had no idea where they came from”
Fucken corupt basterds the lot of them
Yes, I got the nation wrong, it was New Zealand.
be fair, you also got the failure part wrong too.
Not from what I can see.
What do you mean? As far as I am aware, Australia has not created such a generational ban law yet, so how can it be a failure?
Terribly sorry, I got my down under nations mixed up. It was New Zealand that tried.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/19/new-zealand-smoking-ban-what-uk-can-learn
Hmm the biggest problem with it there was that a new government suddenly overturned it despite not having campaigned on the issue at all.
I don’t know if you can take lessons from such a random act.
The article seems to imply the cause was the industry lobby. But really, what could be done differently? If that was indeed the cause, it will be applied to any kind of anti-smoking measure.
It was really dead on arrival, and a prohibition is already stupid hard doing one with a moving age gate… yeah.
New Zealand had this policy but I think it’s been removed.
We have a progressive tax which is largely not working but it’s not so straightforward; for instance illegal imports are dealt with at differing levels across each state which complicates matters.
By and large though Australia’s current approach is definitely failing.
Prohibition is never good, removing individual freedom is never good. I can see the point for some of these restrictions, to provide a safe basis for other people around (because we can’t ask people to simply be nice), but more than that… meh.
I will not be up in arms to defend smoking rights, but that’s probably not the way to do it.
Let’s see. Making tobacco illegal means the black market will florish. And then the government can’t regulate the quality. Kinda what we already have with Cannabis. A lot of countries legalize Cannabis so that buyers can be sure it is of proper quality and not mixed with dangerous substances. Yes, smoking is bad and that’s why it should be expensive in order to discourage people from smoking. And a lot of public spaces should be smoke-free as well so that non-smokers are affected by smokers as little as possible. Banning something completely can go fully in the opposite way, just look what the Prohibition back in the US did with regards to Alcohol.
I don’t like this argument. Every time you ban something there will black market for it. But the goal is to reduce consumption, and it will work. Similarly with weed, if it’s less accessible, it means less consumption.
But the goal is to reduce consumption, and it will work.
Yes, but the black market has serious sides effects. You have to compare the disadvantages of allowing people who want to smoke to smoke, damaging their own health vs the black market funding cartels, mafias, and/or other criminals, causing problems for everyone.
At least smoking sensibly should be banned then. Because it bothers everybody. So if my windows are open and my neighbor smokes in his balcony I could make a lawsuit against him.
Assuming you mean publicly, no argument with that.
The issue is those that still consume have to operate in an unregulated environment
Incorrect
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Oh yes, we have seen how effective prohibition laws are working. Good luck with that one. And to all of you four-eyed, I have never smoked and never will.
