Yeah, no. Segregation magically ending in 1954? The Civil Rights struggles of the 60s didn’t happen? Redlining and Ghettoizing of Black communities? Destruction of Black families by mass incarceration of Black males and forcing families to stay apart to collect benefits, while vilifying single Black mothers as “welfare queens”? We have never, ever been in the green.
Even slavery is still around.
Hell, there were (are still?) segregated schools up until around 2000. I know at least one wasn’t set to desegregate until sometime in the 90s.
I remember reading about a segregated prom in like 2013
bay area, california, and folk use religion as their segregator. if they want to be surrounded by all white people they pick a religion/cult that has only white people going to it. have their kids go to their youth group, do their polyarhythmiac jazz prom, go to their
halloweenharvest dinner/chili cookoff and kick all their bland white bean turkey chili bell peppers too spicy asses, sorry i had a point somewhere but i remembered some ptsfuckingd chili and that shit does things to you. like, i don’t think my great/grand/parents joined the cults they joined because they were racists, i think they joined because they were lonely and being racist was something people didn’t end relationships over. you end relationships over white grandma turkey chili that’s got no spice in it oh your god cassie. or your sister cassie’s god it doesn’t matter. drop an ancho and a bar of chocolate in it and pretend just don’t please gods please don’t enter it in the contest again i’m not tasting it if i’m a judge.
don’t join cults kids, you might end up eating some nasty fucking ass chili do your worst hyphen clown asses
The further north you go the more segregated it gets and still is today. But we never think of the northern states as segregated.
The northern states aren’t really segregated, we just have like 99% white people.
This is not true. Northern cities are still extremely segregated. We say it’s because of economics now, but it’s effectively segregation. The underlying causes of the economic disperity largely remain in place also.
oregon isn’t segregated it was just illegal to be black until some embarrassing time i forget
As the old saying goes, “In the north, they don’t care how loud you get, so long as you don’t get too close. In the south, they don’t care how close you get so long as you aren’t loud.”
while vilifying single Black mothers as “welfare queens”?
You forgot the “best” part: poor people renting apartments end up subsidizing wealthier people living in single-family homes, because suburban sprawl doesn’t generate enough tax revenue per acre to fund the infrastructure and services it consumes. The white middle-class bigots doing the vilifying are, themselves, the real welfare queens!
Yeah, wtf. Martin Luther King got shot in 68. They just forgot to tell him that all is well for 14 years?
There was also a tiny sliver of reconstruction for 12 years in there too. Then the killing sliver at the end of that.
What is the US prison system but slavery with extra steps?
there aren’t even really extra steps considering slavery is perfectly legal in prisons according to the constitution
It seems like less steps: consolidate the whole racket, let the state enforce and pay for it, and let the enslavers continue to profit.
This seems much easier and more reliable than the prior decentralized system of private enslavers.
don’t worry we still have private prisons to carry on the tradition
The yellow should be orange and the green should be yellow and labeled “carcereal slavery”
I was going to comment something along these lines with the war on drugs, but legal slavery for imprisoned persons is a huge part of why the war on drugs was pursued and persists.
The civil rights act is from 1964, so even shorter time than the picture shows.
And after that, VRA, loving vs Virginia, fair housing act. Ending segregation was a gradual process that, by many metrics, still isn’t complete, but any date before 1964 or 1968 is a big fat lie.
Yeah without the fair housing act in 68, Trump wouldn’t have been sued in 73 for discrimination by the DOJ.
Its worse than that slavery against native Americans was earlier even if we only count territory that would be in the united states eventually and only by Europeans and their descendants, and the last person sold as a slave and the “owner” not being sentenced to life without parole was in world war 2.
There were news stories as recent as 2012 about schools in the south being segregated. There are still sundown towns. Segregation only ended on paper.
My ex’s family would talk about what they’d do to a black person if one ever stepped foot on their property. Within the last 10 years btw.
If you count incarceration
We do. It is specifically and explicitly an exception in the US Constitution:
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Well, American slavery never actually ended, we just call.it prison labor now. Segregation only really ended on paper. It’s become less prominent I guess, but it’s not gone.
Remember that some places were forced to desegregate in the 1990s.
Not every white person had a house either, and if they didnt then their family ended up losing a lot of compound growth, and ended up poorer as they payed somebody elses mortgage. What really happened I think is the lack of class mobility due to the financialization of everything, due to unlimited money printing and corporate bailouts.
The average mortgage was 7 years historically and somebody saving a ton could pay it off in under 5 years, instead of the massive 30 year loans backed by the govenment we have now. Its like as we got richer and more productive we simultaneously became poorer and can barely house ourselves, as food quality got cheaper with shrinkflation and industrialization.
I really don’t where this influx of
mispellingmisspelling paid as payed over the last few years has come from, but it seems to be becoming more and more common.For what it’s worth, “payed” is a very old nautical term that means to spread tar on the deck of a ship.
I really don’t where this influx of mispelling
I really don’t either. And it’s misspelling. Cuz you know…
Hah. I looked at that word, then wrote it with a double s, looked at it again and it looked wrong, so I went back to one.
But now that I see it posted, the single s looks very wrong indeed.
D’oh.
Also, any post on the internet about someone else’s spelling mistakes will inevitably contain at least one spelling error itself, so I’m just maintaining the universal rules ;)
In your case, I suppose it’s “cuz”
Still don’t see it?
… see what?
over the last few years
There’s no way this is just in the last few years, unless you mean like 20-30 years or so (along with the rest of the common misspellings you can find on the internet versus edited printed material). Also the meaning isn’t just spreading a waterproof coating, but also to let out line or rope.
What’s special about 1619 to be considered the start of American slavery?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamestown%2C_Virginia
In August 1619, the first recorded slaves from Africa to British North America arrived at present-day Old Point Comfort, near the Jamestown colony, on a British privateer ship flying a Dutch flag.
It was when enslaved African people were first brought to Jamestown. Exactly when the start is more broadly is kind of harder to say since some things are more disputed
The arrival of the first captives to the Jamestown Colony, in 1619, is often seen as the beginning of slavery in America—but enslaved Africans arrived in North America as early as the 1500s.
https://www.history.com/articles/american-slavery-before-jamestown-1619
It’s when England began colonizing the americas. Which is kind of arbitrary since there were slaves in the Americas before that and the founding of The United States of America was over 100 years later.
Green is incarceration and wage slavery
If you think prison is equivalent to slavery, corporate needs to to find the difference between this picture and this picture
I know people are arguing in good faith and want prison reform. However, slavery apologists have captured this argument to minimize the suffering under chattel slavery. (no worse than going to prison) They also argue that the 13th is “white slavery” because half of all prisoners are white. If your the kind of person who understands the difference between an indentured servant and an enslaved person, then you need to understand that a prisoner, even one forced to work under the 13th, is a third thing.
This is very inaccurate. Slavery is not dependent on the level of physical torture inflicted, it is entirely based on whether or not you are forced to work without “adequate” pay. Even in chattel slavery, there were different classes within the enslaved like house slaves and field slaves. Slaves in poorer houses where there were only a few often were treated better than those on plantations, it all came down to expendability.
Comparing a white man, who would be of the most privileged of those arrested, that was just taken in (this is a mugshot) and comparing it to a lifelong enslaved black man person only highlights that your presentation is heavily skewed.
You’re whitewashing how bad chattel slavery was. Slaves were separated from their spouses by sale. Slaves’ children were automatically enslaved. Slaves were legally barred from being educated. They were not allowed to testify in court, so even laws against extreme abuse could not be enforced.
I don’t think I am, which parts of my reply disputes that? Keep in mind modern prison system also forces divorce, their children way more likely to be enslaved, they are denied testifying in abuse cases, and they are denied higher education. The issue is that these are obfuscated in the current system on purpose, because almost all the abuse today well integrated into the system.
They are denied one specific grant for higher education, but they are taught for free within the prison system and can pay for outside education themselves. This is different from being barred by law from learning to read.
Your link does not say that they are denied by law from testifying in abuse cases. It just says that prison abuse happens.
Their children are more likely to end up in prison, but they are not bound by law to the prison that their parents were in.
Prisons do not force divorce.
By saying that imprisonment is literally slavery, you are absolutely minimizing the horrors of chattel slavery.
imprisonment is literally slavery
there are different kinds of slavery, and no one is saying prison slavery is exactly the same as chattle slavery, though it is more similar to chattle slavery than it is to wage slavery.
You did it again! The gap between imprisonment and chattel slavery is much larger than the gap between imprisonment and wage slavery. It’s not even close, but you’re saying the opposite.
There is no way that Elizabeth Holmes would submit to chattel slavery, but she calls imprisonment “hell,” and she is far off the mark. https://people.com/elizabeth-holmes-breaks-her-silence-in-first-interview-from-prison-it-s-been-hell-and-torture-exclusive-8789737
this is so incoherent, that i think you’re just being disagreeable. have a nice day.
You nor I said they were prevented from being taught to read, we are talking about education. Most Americans aren’t literate fwiw, less so in imprisioned populations. They are denied a grant that allows them to access wages at or above living wage, greatly increasing the risk of them being reimprisioned. How do they pay for education if they are not adequately paid in prison, which also drains their bank accounts while in there? Most are already working poor before prison.
You didn’t read too much into the link, here is an article that summarizes it for you. What matters is whether justice for abuse cases happen, not whether or not one can testify about it. Same outcome different method.
What are you trying to say here? That there’s a substantial difference on which prison a person goes to?
Prisons force separation.
By saying that chattel slavery is the only real slavery, you are absolutely minimizing the horrors of today. I’m not saying that prison = chattel slavery, that is you trying to create a false equivalence to deny. I am saying that 5 on the slavery scale and 10 on the slavery scale are not 0 on the slavery scale.
You nor I said they were prevented from being taught to read
It was illegal to teach slaves to read. It is not illegal to teach prisoners to read. On the contrary, most prisons have adult basic education or high school equivalency programs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-literacy_laws_in_the_United_States?wprov=sfla1
By saying that chattel slavery is the only real slavery, you are absolutely minimizing the horrors of today
I never said that. I said that imprisonment is nowhere near chattel slavery, and saying that it is whitewashes how bad chattel slavery was.
And we were talking about education.
Then please go into detail about how pointing out how terrible the prison system can be actually is whitewashes chattel slavery, one day old account.
Primus~ “Welp, no more slaves unless they are serving time in prison. It’s a bummer.”
Secundus~ “Well, let’s put them in prison.”
Primus~ “BRILLIANT”
Not to split hairs on moral grounds, but shouldnt it be english slavery up until at least the revolutionary war started?
While the Brits outlawed slavery around 1830s for themselves, they had no problem loading slaves onto their ships and smuggling them to the Americas for a good while after. Plus they openly supported the Confederacy throughout the Civil War to keep the cotton rolling in. And of course we don’t need to mention colonialism that lasted until after WW2 now, do we? Of course the French, Dutch, Spanish, and Germans also colonized every inch of some else’s dirt to exploit them back to the Stone Age. And there was little hesitation to kill any and all that objected the “civilizing” effect of European influence.
And slavery is ongoing even as we speak in certain parts of this world. But we do nothing and care little about that. As long as they keep it on the down low we need not be overly concerned.
Still in the Americas, I suppose?
England started ending slavery before the revolutionary war.
That’s a major reason why the founding enslavers of USA concocted their own regime, but that reality has been mostly obscured.
Now show slavery in Brazil.
Or Europe.
Or Islam.
This arbitrary timeline doesn’t help. All slavery is bad.
It also doesn’t help applying our current views and ideals on the past. I don’t know when the cutoff is, but at some point we have to say “it was a different time and therefor acceptable” not necessarily forgiving them, but at least acknowledging that it was “acceptable.”
What is your point exactly?
I know you are probably not trying to sound like an apologist for fucking slavery, but I’m coming up empty on alternative hypotheses.
“I’d rather whataboutism than admit that the country I live in, the one I’m attached to because I’ve been “loving” it like the rest of the American cult, is simply pure evil. Fuck black people, fuck the Natives that suffered my ancestors, my feelings are hurt!”
This childish outburst doesn’t help.
?
Explain what you meant previously. Try to be honest, it won’t kill you.
Explain what you meant previously.
OK.
This childish outburst doesn’t help.
So…
“I’d rather whataboutism than admit that the country I live in, the one I’m attached to because I’ve been “loving” it like the rest of the American cult, is simply pure evil. Fuck black people, fuck the Natives that suffered my ancestors, my feelings are hurt!”
I’m not American, so I’ll just ignore the first sentence. The 2nd sentence is on another lavel, as I haven’t attacked black people, native people, or their ancestors or my feelings.
Are you ok?
My man, you have diminished chattle slavery and the American white supremacist attitude that runs deep in the country’s soul with your original statement, comparing it to things it simply cannot be compared to. It’s unhelpful and pointless, because the Americans have the power to bomb and genocide people, so it’s more than valid to just focus on that without saying “what about slavery in Brazil!”. Is the average Brazilian okay with white supremacy? Because the average white American, the Trump base plus the Republican-lite Dems and Libs, are, and they are wrecking the world.
AND YOU STILL HAVEN’T EXPLAINED YOUR ORIGINAL POST.
I hope someone’s paying you to be this obtuse, goddamn.
No. I have pointed out that there is a period of time that the post was about that focused on a particular time for a particular nation, and so ignored the WHOLE of human history that allowed slavery. Including today. Also, if I “diminished…American white supremacist attitude” that’s a good thing, right? They should be diminished.
I’m not American, so I’ll just ignore the first sentence. The 2nd sentence is on another lavel, as I haven’t attacked black people, native people, or their ancestors or my feelings.
Yeah, so the original post is clearly about the US and may require some US specific context to understand. What you’re doing is equivalent to me going into a thread in “Ich el” and complaining that a German language joke about German society (that I don’t actually understand) is flawed for not including Brazil. Or going to a “Black Lives Matter “ protest with an “All Lives Matter “ sign.
Everyone is welcome in the conversation but when multiple people are telling you that you don’t understand what’s going on and are being offensive, take the hint and try listening more and talking less for a bit. We all know that there has been slavery in many different systems in many different countries. This post was not about that. Everyone isn’t knowledgeable enough to make insightful posts about that (myself included).
I happen to know enough about the US to assert: the US currently has some deeply fucked up racial issues including actual racists running our government. The original post is pointing out that we should not be surprised since this has been a deliberate policy since the founding of the country all the way through my parents teenage years. After over 400 years of white supremacist policy, we’ve had about 50 years of trying to not have actively, aggressively racist laws and now there are dickbags on major news networks claiming that “whITe mEn aRe tHe ReAl vIcTiMs”.
Fair point, well made.
What is your point exactly?
All slavery is bad.
People should stop hyper-focusing on specifics like this, instead, look at the macroscopic view.
All slavery is bad
You are aware of the fact that there are different forms of slavery?
The chattel slavery of the antebellum US is uniquely bad in scale and brutality of oppression. This is clear to anyone who has spent more than five minutes studying the topic.
Living in the US means regularly encountering light skinned black people. The reason that most light skinned black people in the US have light skin is because of rape. Systemic rape. After the import ban of the early 1800’s, the U.S. bred its own slaves.
Apologies, but I don’t understand what the colour of skin has in relation to this post?
Slavery in the US WAS BASED ON THE COLOR OF PEOPLE’S SKIN. As was SEGREGATION.
Are you not capable of reading or do you just lack any knowledge of the basic history you are trying to argue about?
My understanding segregation in the US was actually about white people keeping their kids away from integrated schools (which is a nuance, it wasn’t black school vs white school - and a lot of it was in the south). Slavery is NOT a colour based system. Don’t get me wrong, it clearly ended up being one based on the the US outcome, but we are talking about Human slavery, it’s been happening our entire civilisation, not just the 250 years or so of US existance.
Good job revealing that you know absolutely nothing about US history.
My understanding segregation in the US was actually about white people keeping their kids away from integrated schools (which is a nuance, it wasn’t black school vs white school - and a lot of it was in the south). Slavery is NOT a colour based system.
Absolutely, categorically, objectively wrong.
I just saw an ad on Facebook recruiting volunteers to go through old housing contracts to find where they still explicitly prohibit Black folks from living in certain neighborhoods. It was based on Black versus White. In the schools which continue to be de facto segregated based on race to this fucking day, it is based on race.
Get your foot out of your mouth and pick up a basic history textbook.
Dude, this is not a me problem. It’s 100% a you problem.
I don’t have a problem. I have an opinion.
And a serious issue expressing it clearly.
Which part of my opinion is unclear?
Your “opinion” is evidence of your problem. You’re not alone though, that’s probably the average American reaction to being told their truths.
But you said it was unclear. I also didn’t say I was American.
That’s not me. And you either are or for whatever reason you’re American aligned and as brainwashed/evil as them. But I can see you for what you are, lol, because all this time you haven’t even tried to make an ethical argument/explanation for your attitude. Oh well.
This arbitrary timeline doesn’t help
The point, which should be abundantly obvious, is how recent race based chattel slavery being ended is, and how it was present throughout the history of the US.
The fact is that the US was built on race based chattel slavery. The US is fundamentally structured on racial hierarchy, with Black individuals existing under White ones. This has been legally codified for the bulk of the US’s lifespan, and is a foundational part of the way the US is structured.
This could be similarly said about Brazil, which was also organized around race based chattel slavery, with Europeans importing slaves from Africa there as well.
“Europe” or “Islam” are irrelevant and too broad to be useful terms for historical analysis or at all relevant here.
I agree, I shouldn’t have taken a worldview (Brazil, Europe or Islam) when the post was clearly about the US.
You get that there is a pattern of shitty historical revisionists that bring up “Muslim slavery” to minimize US slavery? Which you just did?
Is “Islam” a universal world view? If you want to talk about Islam and slavery, at bare fucking minimum you need to talk about a specific area, time period and its strain of Islam. I have no idea what your vague illusion to “Europe” was even supposed to mean in the context of slavery.
I think you just need to recognize that you know next to nothing about this topic, and when one knows nothing, they need to shut the fuck up.
You get that there is a pattern of shitty historical revisionists that bring up “Muslim slavery” to minimize US slavery? Which you just did?
Sorry, you’re going to have to clarify this for me. 1) Which revisionists? 2) Why is “muslim slavery” different to “slavery”? What did I do?
Islam is not a world view, what? It’s a religion that has a long history (that a large part includes slavery).
Europe, as implied by the very first post, was a large part of the North American slave trade. However, the UK effectively ended the African slave trade, the first I believe, long before the US did, which is why I mentioned it.
Which revisionists?
Lost causers and other racists who want to pretend that the US’s mass enslavement, torture, rape and murder of Africans wasn’t unique.
Why is “muslim slavery” different to “slavery”?
There is not one thing that you can generically refer to as “Muslim slavery.” You can be specific - you can talk about Ottoman slavery, or slavery under the Abassids or something, but saying “Muslim slavery” is a dead give away that you’ve done absolutely zero thinking or research. It’s just a generic “other people had slaves too!” non sequitor.
Why are you trying to make arguments about a topic you clearly have no understanding of? Would you try to teach a calculus class if you had never taken an integral?
Would you try to teach a calculus class if you had never taken an integral?
Maybe he can’t… differentiate between the two.
Ah yes, my favorite Geographic location…Islam
All slavery is bad, but not all slavery is equivalent. This is specifically a timeline of chattel slavery and its lingering impacts (i.e. lack of civil and voting rights), in the United States.
Chattel slavery required the construction of our modern ideas about race, in order to justify the keeping of people as chattel based on their skin color.
Slavery in Roman Europe, meanwhile, was more akin to indentured servitude, with the expectation that enslaved people would eventually become citizens.
It’s not arbitrary, it’s merely the scope of slavery and its effects in the United States. Do you get mad when people don’t talk about the Manchu Dynasty when discussing Victorian English tea consumption?
Yes, to a degree.
I think people hyper-focus on topics and don’t understand reasons or consequences.
“OMG, my ancestor was affected by X - I HATE EVERYONE DESCENDED FROM Y AND THEY MUST PAY THE PRICE” it’s a weird “what-about-me-ism” that seems to occur a lot. Modern people are not their ancestors, why should they “pay” for what their forebears did? At what point does it become Ugg should pay to Ogg did with his club 50,000 years ago?
The problem is that it isn’t just ancient history. There is a lot of fucked up shit happening today that is directly related to shit that’s been going on during our lifetimes. And that shit is all directly related to shit that has been happening over the last 100, 200, 300 years.
When I was a child in a large modern “liberal” city in the US, adults would get up in the morning to throw bricks at school buses of children because they didn’t want black children attending their neighborhood schools. This wasn’t in some tiny southern backwater where everyone was some convenient stereotype and this wasn’t 100 years ago. My parents lived through segregation. The last known child of enslaved black Americans died 4 years ago. There are people alive today whose grandparents were slaves.
People here like to pretend that “Lincoln freed the slaves and then it was all better and everyone needs to move on”. The fact of the matter is that the US is not very old, it’s been super fucked up since day one (really, since before day one), we have made a lot of progress but that progress is very recent and no where close to sufficient. No one is saying to punish random white people. But we should absolutely call bullshit when gaslighters try to tell us that there is no systemic racism in the US and knowing our recent history can help inform those conversations.
Dog whistle alert
