Also you guys are fucking idiots.
“If you don’t pick a better candidate then I’ll just let the one who wants concentration camps and to erase all of Palestine win”
Like, seriously, look at the big picture. Do you think Kamala who would have still supported Israel would have been worse for Gaza? It’s literally not possible. You guys fucked up the entire planet in your pride.
Now I’m not saying the DNC isn’t wrong, they’re fucking morons. But you guys just gave up on global warming, gay rights, trans rights, Gaza, any sembles of the environment, public health, the entire “justice” system, the courts, your immigrant neighbours, all people of colour in the US, and women’s rights.
I cannot express how much I fucking hate people like you right now.
Go ahead and downvote me. “But it’s not right”. Yeah? We’ll choosing to let this happen is leagues worse. You guaranteed the genecide in Gaza would be the worst it ever could be you fucking morons.
Go out and pressure the DNC to not be shit, but don’t fucking say there’s no difference between Kamala and Trump.
But you guys just gave up on global warming, gay rights, trans rights, Gaza, any sembles of the environment, public health, the entire “justice” system, the courts, your immigrant neighbours, all people of colour in the US, and women’s rights.
You forgot to include USAID.
Anyone who keeps clutching to Gaza and says Kamala would have been as bad as Trump can suck my dick.
I forgot a ton of things.
AI, your data privacy, your parents retirement, NATO, electric cars, green energy, antitrust, the chip shortage.
There’s a huge list.
Yup
It’s fucking mind numbing
Yes! Primaries primaries primaries.
Go and primary every single DNC candidate that isn’t good enough, get better democratic candidates wherever you can. Put even more energy into primaries than into the election itself! But when the decision comes down to Churchill or Hitler, you better vote for fucking Churchill.
Everything else is just throwing the minorities and the future under the bus as a cost of doing business.
https://sourcenews.scot/analysis-5-of-the-worst-crimes-of-winston-churchill/
Churchill is probably viewed as worse than Hitler in parts of the world for good reason.
I think a lot of the argument against voting for lesser evil is the acceleration aspect. It’s advocating for a quicker fall of the American empire
Accelerationism is a great idea.
I don’t care how many people die now, because it will bring a glorious time in the future.
Accelerationism is Christianity with Lenin replacing Jesus
Except the Armageddon is real but no-one will rise up to save us when every major city is nothing but glowing embers under an ever gray nuclear sky while the remnants of humanity fight each other with sticks over the last grain silos.
So-called American “revolutionaries” make me sick with their reckless disregard for the unavoidable responsibility their country has with regards to their military. An “accelerated downfall” won’t just affect you bozos. Especially not if the means are “stoking the fire of imperialism”.
If I could press a button to accelerate the US downfall and magically contain the fighting to the lower 48 in a way that leaves whoever is left standing nuke-less, I would, but that’s not an option on the table, so barring that, please vote against the guy who really can’t be trusted with the nuclear briefcase, yeah???
Accelerationism is acceptable to people who think they have little to fear from a (hopefully) short spike in terrible things, because they might come out of the other side worse for wear, but they will make it through.
But for everybody who’s part of a vulnerable group it’s throwing them to the wolves, because likely, they will not come out of the other side.
(I want to be clear that I’m not advocating for accelerationism, I’m just seeing holes in the argument) Pushing people in a vulnerable position now to make change for the future is a great example of the needs of the many ethical arguments. Advocating against change because it hurts me in the short term is inherently selfish. I know people that are accelerationists, and The ones I know don’t assume that they’ll come out ahead or even the same. They recognize that the system is inherently broken and they think they need more people uncomfortable to make meaningful change.
Wanna know how to pressure the DNC to pick a candidate you like? Go fucking vote for them in the primary!
Typically, the primaries get 1/10th the turnout of the general election. That means that a very small number of people can sway the primary. Go stump for your candidate. Make phone calls, talk to your family and friends and community, explain why your candidate is the better choice.
The lack of a primary in 2024 was fucking awful, but guess what? Chances are, there is a primary going on for your state right now, get to work!
Try telling that to someone who supported Bernie, but before you do that you might want to go back and refresh youself on what happened. The DNC is a diseased carcass, change isn’t possible.
Before I consider this complaint, I need you to go back, and get the primary results from the 2016 DNC primary and post them here.
I know what the results are, but I need to know that you know before we discuss further.
Do you really think the vote results of a corrupt election somehow make that election not corrupt? How are we still having this stupid ass argument in 2026?
I guess Putin really does have 88% support in Russia. That’s what the vote says after all, so it must be true.
Are you saying that Bernie got more votes in the primary than Hillary, and the DNC manipulated the votes to make Hillary win?
No, I’m saying the election itself was corrupted in order to feed the victory to Hillary. Superdelegates, DNC-run smear campaigns, election rigging by limiting debates to reduce the visibility of the outsider. Accusations of sexism simply for not supporting the candidate with a vagina.
Manipulating votes is not the only way to rig an election, you can do a lot just by manipulating the voters themselves. The DNC admitted to this, they didn’t have to run a fair election. So stop pretending the end result of a blatantly corrupt process justifies the process.
Alright, you pretty much posted the same argument I was expecting from the other two, but just taking a little detour through the possibility that you thought the votes were altered.
Before I consider this complaint, I need you to go back, and get the primary results from the 2016 DNC primary and post them here.
I need to know that you know before we can discuss further.
In 2016. 2020 it was fair and he lost. I voted for him but supposedly all his other supporters didn’t. That’s democracy. You don’t count if you don’t show up.
but before you do that you might want to go back and refresh youself on what happened.
He lost? Yeah, fuck primaries forever!
did bernie lose because people didn’t vote for him? or did he lose because the democrats establishment push him out?
for what you said to be true, the democrats need to abolish the superdelegates, which they won’t do.
Same thing applies to you.
Before I consider this complaint, I need you to go back, and get the primary results from the 2016 DNC primary and post them here.
Yeah…
To the people “wanting to teach the DNC a lesson”, in the nicest way possible, you’re fucking idiots.
They threw literally ever other minority group under the bus, and got absolutely nothing for it - if anything they actually got less than nothing, because Trump wasn’t just going soft on Israel, he was actively cheering them on!
I will never understand the mentality of choosing that hill to die on… Like couldn’t you guys have waited until Trump was at least off the board first.
Man was literally on his way to a lifetime in jail and bankruptcy, that he got out of scot-free because you guys decided 2024 was the time for a protest vote.
I will never understand the mentality of choosing that hill to die on…
I think it only makes sense if they’re lying about their beliefs and wanted trump to win.
I think for some of them it’s an unwillingness to admit/accept the consequences for their actions.
Honestly I agree with this take more than @TrickDacy@lemmy.world.
Some people get far too easily caught up in the issue of the day and lose sight of the bigger picture, and by the time they see the consequences of that it’s far too late.
Like I was saying with the whole Israel thing. People got so worked up in refusing every DNC candidate who wasn’t anti-Israel, that they seemingly entirely forgot about everything else on the board.
Ukraine? LGBTQ rights? Women’s rights? Ethnic Minority rights? Climate Change reforms? Apparently the US’ whole democratic system?
Was losing all that really all worth fighting up a losing battle over Israel?.. Which arguably had an even worse outcome than it would’ve, entirely because of their fighting over it let the genocidal dictator wannbe win?
Its ironically not too disimilar to how the far right screws over their voterbase…
Get them riled up over some racist bigoted stance, then stab them in the back and tell them it was somebody else’s fault while still holding the knife.
Theyre not unlike maga voters in that regard and they don’t want to hear it.
When you wrap up your political decisions in your identity it is CRUSHING to admit you’ve been wrong.
I imagine they feel so pure not voting or voting third party or whatever and then the reality of that comes crashing in about February 1 or so.
I could forgive that if they at least don’t make the same mistake twice.
Edit- witness the downvotes for saying this. Just confirmation I suppose.
That might be, but it’s hard to believe many people would not see the result coming ahead of time. It’s just not a believable concept to me that these folks really believed that anything could happen besides trump being more likely to win. The most generous I can be with them is that they didn’t care what would happen.
We had the chance to get rid of Trump forever and the tankies blew it
Wasn’t the chance to get rid of trump immediately after January 6th? Are you calling Biden a tanky?
This continues to be the stupidest, least productive way to think about elections. The lesser of two evils argument may be true, but it failed to motivate people to vote for Kamala in 2024 (or Hillary in 2016, for that matter). You can bitch about protest votes or an apathetic electorate all you want, but at the end of the day, you don’t win elections if you don’t get votes, and, “yEaH, bUt TrUmP iS wOrSe,” didn’t get votes. If the Democrats once again run a candidate who doesn’t reflect their base and once again lose the election, it will once again be their fault for repeating a losing strategy that produces losing candidates.
But you can bet when they lose they’ll blame everyone else in the room but themselves. I don’t think the neo-liberals of the party realize how much bad blood they’ve been generating.
It’s getting hard to tell if they even want to win. Even a year ago it might be plausible to argue that centrism is a smart strategy, but at this point, with victories like Mamdani and Mejia, it’s just demonstrably wrong. Hell, Platner is still leading Mills in Maine even after the whole, “having a Nazi tattoo,” thing. If the Democrats are still pursuing centrism going into 2028, then they have to admit they would prefer losing to fascists than adding progressives to their tent.
They know, thats why every discussion revolving politics to the left of the republicans devolves into “what the fuck you gonna do, vote republican?”
Abuser mentality. Hostage politics. No democracy to be had here. All this could be ended in every blue state controlled by the democrats by passing electoral reform. By replacing First-past-the-post voting and doing away with the spoiler effect that keeps 3rd parties from having equal access to our elections.
But the democrats are uninterested in democracy. They want safe states and elections versus evil cartoon characters. And they will have them, no matter the cost to the United States of America.
Its much harder to campaign against a group of people who all have much more then just a concept of a plan. Capitalists hate competition.
The US election system is stupid, antiquated and corrupt. As long as it isn’t reformed (of which it itself prevents ever happening), the lesser evil is all you will ever get from that system.
Go out and pressure the DNC to not be shit
How about you go out and draw the rest of the owl there? The main power we have is our right to vote, and you’re saying we shouldn’t use that to pressure the DNC to put forth a pro-worker anti-war candidate.
And how is not voting for them going to do that? They’re fine with you not voting for them, and even losing in the case of DNC leadership. Always have been.
You want to put pressure on them? Be the candidate to primary the party line candidate in Democratic primaries. Yes they will use every structural advantage they have against you. But if enough people do it constantly. The cracks will widen and show. Otherwise they’re happy to receive donations and funding from the wealthy, even if they don’t win.
To be clear, I think all national parties should be outlawed. Generally state wide ones as well. But unless you can change the political reality we are in. The only possibility is not just holding off the worst possible candidates such as trump. Though more should have shown solidarity against him. But being the candidates we want to vote for. And not letting some uninterested complacent national organization make those decision for us.
Not voting for them has done just that! We’ve seen real change at the DNC, and that is only because the neoliberals have been completely discredited. They can no longer claim the narrative of being the adult in the room, the logical choice for electability.
Party power structures only change after the party loses.
I’m a leftist who absolutely voted Harris, because the other option was horrific. I was not in love with Kamala but I did feel that she was a faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar better option. But I will not lie, I know several people who were basically exactly like the people you are talking about. It’s disheartening.
Please shut the fuck up.
Youre spreading the propaganda that helped them justify their actions.
Oh ok my bad. I’ll stfu now.
I CaNT bElIevE PeOpLE wOuLD dO ThiS!!!
Meanwhile, you’re pulling provably false both sides bullshit. What a tool you must be.
All they can do is harp on this strawman because deep down they’re ashamed.
You’re right. Liberals do love their straw men.
Like a literal child.
I’m just pissed off we let America have so much power over the world as it is. They’re one country, for fuck sake, not the World Police.
Silver lining: Trump just killed that role like a newborn baby in lake Michigan.
“fuck democracy! You are required to vote how I want you to vote! You don’t have a choice!” /s
Yes. For sure with Harris things would be much better here and there. Not voting is only makes things worse and we know GOP is very unpopular now the only strategy is to infiltrate Dems and manipulate people to not vote again and elect them again.
Dems are so easily to manipulate this why things are bad. If you don’t vote it’s your fault how things are
Hi. I’m not voting for your sorry ass candidates. Cry all you want.
People don’t like being insulted and taken advantage of. Why is that so hard to understand?
So your feelings are more important than the oppression of all the minoritzed groups?
You have piss poor reading comprehension. I suggest you enroll in an adult learning class at your local community college.
Harris chose to lose the most winnable election in history because Democrats know they can punish voters for being disloyal simply by allowing Republicans to win. If you demand too much from Democrats they will throw the election. It’s essentially a hostage situation, you must give unconditional support to the Good Cop or the Bad Cop will beat you to death. You don’t want the Bad Cop, do you?
If we don’t abolish this system we’re all going to die.
Removed by mod
Trump only got 49.9% of the vote. He has never been popular, even by capitalizing on disgust with liberals. It really wasn’t his election to lose, he’s not actually a strong candidate. He won by playing against an opponent that doesn’t want to win.
Trump only got 49.9% of the vote. He has never been popular,
Idk about you, but 49.9% of the vote sounds very popular to me.
Hell 10% sounds popular.
I don’t think the issue is his popularity. He’s definitely popular
Far be it from me to argue against the US being a backwards shithole racist country, because it obviously is and death to Amerikkka, but I don’t like the narrative that he had some kind of mandate to govern because he is so popular. He really doesn’t. He’s started without a majority and it’s been down hill ever since.
By the by, that’s just of the people who bothered to vote. If we counted non-voters, he got 32%
And the fact is that you tell people this, verifiable fact, and they get mad and stick fingers in their ears. They really want to lose.
I remember debates on Reddit. I kept pointing out that the official inflation figures fail to measure the pain people were figuring. But I just got downvoted to Hell by a bunch of troglodytes mindlessly parroting the CPI figures, as if that was the only thing that matters.
There is a severe strain of Orwellian magical thinking among liberals. Speak no evil, see no evil, hear no evil. Ignore all bad news and try to give your way to victory.
I shouldn’t have to scroll this far for a bit of sanity on God’s Lemmy. 😭
No matter how it might appear, the DNC didn’t fucking throw the election. Jesus Christ, who upvotes this shit?
Terminally online leftists need to get out and touch grass. No party will ever pander to you because not only is your bloc essentially nonexistent in the US, but you literally have no fucking idea how any of this shit actually works in real life.
If you think that the Democratic party is losing elections on purpose as a “fuck you” to voters, you are delusionally stupid.
The only other reasonable explanation is that they’re too stupid and don’t know how to win elections.
If you think that the Democratic party are stupid, you are delusional.
They refuse to campaign on popular policies even when it increases their chances of losing because it doing otherwise would anger their donors. They know it might cause them to lose. It’s purposeful. What else do you call that?
Ableist Liberal poster named “prole” trying to lecture leftists about politics. Perfect. No notes.
I take issue with your use of the adjective “good” in “good cop”.
I doubt it. Trump got those votes regardless of what Harris could’ve done.
People want to be openly racist and homophobic.
The reason Harris lost is because people who voted for Biden in 2020 stayed home and because fewer young people voted than in previous elections, not because they voted for Trump. Democratic turnout fell by 2 million votes.
Would it have made a difference and out weighed the racism votes? After brexiit, I’ll n never underestimate the power of hate.
By the numbers, yes. Trump’s turnout increased by 1 million, Democrats decreased by 2 million, and the loss of Democrat turnout was what pushed Trump over the edge. He still only got 49.9% of the vote, after all.
But it isn’t the amount of votes, it’s the states that are won/lost. I’m not from US and I know that…
It would have made a difference in Michigan specifically. He won by 80 thousand votes.
Ah yes the leftists who complain and cry at the federal election but take no interest in primaries, or joining the party or volunteering for their preferred candidate. American leftists just wanna sit on their ass and be handed a candidate, so that’s what you get.
Last one you guys didnt take part in so they picked the old white man, when you complained they gave you an educated black woman and you “leftists” went “eeew not that” while cheering for Bernie, another ancient white man.
You guys are a shit show of contradiction, shit slinging and infighting because nobody is good enough to be an ally anymore. This is why I blame all of you for Trump, the American right and the left. You guys suck, and the rest of the leftists in sane countries know it
Wy are we assuming the majority of non-voters were leftists? The most common thing I heard from non-voters was about apathy rather than strong leftist morals.
Pretty sure there’s core differences between Biden and Bernie.
“Whaat? You mean some people DON’T vote by race and gender??”
The original commenter is racist.
OP is a probably a DNC aide
In Germany we have the saying: “When two leftists meet, three parties are being formed.”
Delusions of a confused Liberal.
By that logic, no one should have supported racist America and colonist Britain against the Nazis.
Damn you and your logic!
I’ve posted this a lot, and I’ll post it again.
Read up on Jerry Falwell and the Moral Majority. Back in the 1970s televangelist Falwell decided to get involved in GOP politics. He had a simple formula; he’d send his people to any local Republican event. If twenty people total had shown up the last time the club picked the new county clerk, Falwell would have fifty there. Those dogcatchers and justices of the peace were soon Congress members and Senators and governors.
Western leadership didn’t tweet their every racist thought to the public. If they knew back then, that Churchill had more in common with Hitler than even his own top military officials, he wouldn’t be as highly regarded as he is today
Everything you wrote is wrong. Sorry, but I can’t say it any other way.
First, being racist was the default position for any Western leader in that era. FDR having Black combat troops was a hugely controversial idea. People knew what Churchill had done in India.
Read ‘The Autobiography of Malcom X.’ There were plenty of Black Americans who believed that the system was perfect. Plenty of colonized peoples thought that ‘the Mother Country’ had done them a favor by civilizing them.
If everything I wrote was wrong, why are you literally agreeing with me?
Contrarianism is a disease
Your first line is “Western leadership didn’t tweet their every racist thought to the public.”
My first line was “… being racist was the default position for any Western leader in that era.”
In what world is that me agreeing with you?
Also, at this moment I see your comment is -9 and mine is +24 points. I only mention to show that not many people agree with your interpretation of the facts.
i won’t say i will “support” them per se, but i will tolerate them as long as they are fighting the nazis.
Slightly better than fascist is a very low bar, and most of them aren’t clearing it.
The bar is ‘are they itching to exterminate PoC/LGBT+ people’, and Green MAGA decided they want their own bar instead and will throw away those vulnerable minorities to satisfy their own morality cocksucking.
Imagine a group thinking Palestine swung the needle at all on US elections. ROFL…
That is getting close to “flat earth” level of denial.
Kamela ran a horrible, lame, corporate platform.
Most importantly she committed the worst crime against the swing voters in the US by not being a man and not being white on top of that.
I think every other explanation is wishful thinking about just how sexist and racist the average US voter is.
You can blame lame platform or stance on Palestine, but I have a hard time believing that the explanation isn’t simply sexism + racism.
I don’t recall Biden having an inspiring campaign, he was simply a white male that wasn’t trump and he beat him.
Biden was also right after Trump’s first term, when anger was at its highest, and supposed to save us from covid.
Kamela ran a horrible, lame, corporate platform.
And in a reasonable world this wouldn’t have mattered. People are unreasonable.
Politics has always been a popularity contest? Did you not learn this in your grade school student council elections? You’re whining about human nature. People need to be inspired. They don’t give a shit about someone’s Senate voting record.
Yes. Exactly. Unreasonable.
The meme is unironically true though. I hate the candidates that the dnc puts forward, but I hate the opposition more. 2016 and 2024 kinda shows how the meme is unfortunately rather accurate, and I heard plenty of people advocating for not voting for Kamala because of stances that trump was objectively worse on.
The problem is that the DNC neo-liberal establishment has been playing games with the left for a long time now. They have blamed them for defeats, neglected them for victories, and say “Vote Blue No Matter Who” even while they’re literally considering a guy not much better than the incumbent fascists. I for one am sick of it and they have shown to be not much better than the opposition in terms of policies, candidates, and ideology.
I had tankies tell me that by voting Kamala I sold out Palestine to “save myself”
Even though Trump was worse on Palestine…
I am sorry but if people still think the Palestinian conflict is the end-all and be-all of where the state of the world goes, much less, where America goes. Then they’re no better than the single-minded voters that helped the Republicans win twice.
There will ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS be conflict going on over the Middle-East with everyone there. It is NEVER-ENDING. We’ve wasted nearly 20 years dicking around with Afghanistan and Iraq. All for what? So the Taliban can take over territory in less than a week after all that effort? What a waste!
What we needed to do and should have done was hold Israel accountable and not fund them anymore. If to them, makes us look anti semitic, then so what? They’re the aggressors, they’re the ones being tyrannical bastards right now and if they can’t see that then it’s their problem they need to sort out or don’t. Whatever floats their little boat.
But also, we have so much shit to fix here that it’ll be a bit until we get there. We’ve already squandered telling Israel to stop their shit.
There will ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS be conflict going on over the Middle-East with everyone there. It is NEVER-ENDING. We’ve wasted nearly 20 years dicking around with Afghanistan and Iraq. All for what? So the Taliban can take over territory in less than a week after all that effort? What a waste!
Sorry, I’m having a lot of trouble trying to connect the dots between the US waging decades long wars of aggression in the Middle East and accomplished nothing with the idea that it’s acceptable to keep sending weapons and fueling conflict through a proxy.
“There is always war in the Middle East [until America is destroyed].”
Fixed that for you, Liberal.
I find it funny how many people do seem to believe that the US or the EU funds Israel. Clearly clueless about the Israeli super resilient economy…
The EU is indeed the biggest funder of Gaza and that seems to give it exactly zero influence there :/
The US does fund Israel
What pisses me off is that America won’t let its citizens have single payer yet we fund it for Israel
Immigrants, trans, Ukrainians, women… these groups are a sacrifice white male leftists are willing to make.
No, these are sacrifices the DNC is willing to make as made clear by the fact that they did jack shit to draft protecting laws while in office.
There already was a post-trump president and the “tankies” were 100% right about him. Why would it be different this time around?
I’ve been told leftists never vote and arent worth representing. So are we super important or not?
“I’ve been told this [obviously made up strawman]. So which is it, the [obviously made up strawman] or the other thing?”
Hmm, difficult choice there, buddy.
Have the republicans even bothered to give a name for 2028?
The fact that they’ve been memeing about Trump having a third term tells you how excited they are about their actual prospects.
Let Greg Abbot run so the right can have an aneurysm about DEI policies while having a dude in a wheelchair lead their country.
They already have a dementia patient doing it. Why not another disabled person.
Just like the musk/trump split was visible miles away, any figure running for president after trump will inevetably be shit on by trump and his media aparatus because of his narcissitic insecurities.
The best thing that could happen for republicans right now is trump dying because its only going to get more costly to not lick those dress shoes.
They haven’t dared. If they manage to convince Trump to follow the Constitution for a change, whoever his successor is will have to have his blessing.
If Trump runs again you’ve fucked up. He can’t just run for a third term.
Trump can be long dead and buried, yet I feel like he’s still going to be running in every US election for the next few decades. The majority of his supporters have only doubled down on his brand of politics, so there will always be another Trump.
Yeah, he’s going to be the new Reagan they pray to for decades.
My concern is that if he were to drop dead tomorrow that a large portion of his followers will just say something dumb like he’s gone undercover in an attempt to take over the deep state. And then proceed to add him in as a write in ballot for the next several decades.
Those votes would just get thrown out in that case, so if that’s what they want to do, they are welcome to do so.
Yeah, that would actually be a great scenario for us. Dead Trump splitting the Republican vote for the next 2 decades would be chef’s kiss.
An element of what you say is true, but he’s also a cult of personality that they’re really going to struggle to replicate. Trump literally only cares about himself and has taken zero (0) steps to develop successors. Right now, JD Vance is poised to lead the movement, and he has the personality of a potato
Here in Texas, our leading candidates for Senate (James Talarico) and governor (Gina Hinojosa) are taking refreshingly reality-based positions on Gaza and seem to be developing campaigns aimed directly against billionaires. I like what I’ve been hearing
Elections are not the time and place for democracy, that’s some tankie shit. If you want to make your voice heard, do it any other time. Not during elections. It’s just not right.
Wow. I never knew it was possible to be this wrong. Thank you for this unique experience.
I swear to god, the actual argument is so close I ate the onion at first.
Ahh yes, now is not the time to discuss about school shootings. Let’s wait until things calm down. Then things never calm down and it’s the next one. Oh sorry, I got your argument confused withe another, my bad.
Lol we need to overthrow the system
