• N0t_5ure@lemmy.world
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      9 days ago

      “If," [“the management consultant”] said tersely, “we could for a moment move on to the subject of fiscal policy. . .” “Fiscal policy!" whooped Ford Prefect. “Fiscal policy!" The management consultant gave him a look that only a lungfish could have copied. “Fiscal policy. . .” he repeated, “that is what I said.” “How can you have money,” demanded Ford, “if none of you actually produces anything? It doesn’t grow on trees you know.” “If you would allow me to continue… .” Ford nodded dejectedly. “Thank you. Since we decided a few weeks ago to adopt the leaf as legal tender, we have, of course, all become immensely rich.” Ford stared in disbelief at the crowd who were murmuring appreciatively at this and greedily fingering the wads of leaves with which their track suits were stuffed. “But we have also,” continued the management consultant, “run into a small inflation problem on account of the high level of leaf availability, which means that, I gather, the current going rate has something like three deciduous forests buying one ship’s peanut." Murmurs of alarm came from the crowd. The management consultant waved them down. “So in order to obviate this problem,” he continued, “and effectively revalue the leaf, we are about to embark on a massive defoliation campaign, and. . .er, burn down all the forests. I think you’ll all agree that’s a sensible move under the circumstances." The crowd seemed a little uncertain about this for a second or two until someone pointed out how much this would increase the value of the leaves in their pockets whereupon they let out whoops of delight and gave the management consultant a standing ovation. The accountants among them looked forward to a profitable autumn aloft and it got an appreciative round from the crowd.”

      ― Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

    • explodicle@sh.itjust.works
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      9 days ago

      Infinite gold would be useful for electronics, but it would destroy gold’s utility as a long-term store of value. So the wealth for shareholders would be finite, taken from today’s gold holders.

        • explodicle@sh.itjust.works
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          9 days ago

          I’m no physicist, but it seems like once transmutation is a thing, it won’t stop here.

          It would be like a quantum computer breaking Bitcoin and so we fall back on Ethereum.

            • JATth@lemmy.world
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              9 days ago

              I don’t know, if you gather one proton’s and two neutrons worth of energy, localized entirely within the supposed space of an atom, you could generate mass from energy. However, what that energy converts into, is entirely random, so I would guess most of the time you just get realllly high energy photons out of it.

                • JATth@lemmy.world
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                  9 days ago

                  You have seen the equations? 99% you don’t get anything useful or somehow split the fucking universe, so that time-reversed flow of information won’t break the causality. (And it fucking does break the universe, the local bubble we are in. Please, don’t google false-vacuum.) We don’t even know the speed of light in one-direction, because information travels at the fucking speed of light, whatever that is. Yet, you measure a spin of electron, and the other fucker in the opposite side of the universe, is known to be opposite in the instant.

                  The action is minimized by nature, in one way or other, even if this means punching a hole in the space-time continuum, to start a tree-of-universes descending from the host.

                  /s (I had enough beer for today.)

  • JATth@lemmy.world
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    9 days ago

    arxiv.org: a pre-print source, this is not peer-reviewed yet. So, until other papers refer to this paper, it has low significance in the literature. The paper has references to other papers and to previous corpus of knowledge on the subject, which is good. However, this paper is based on simulations only.

    Crucially, the scheme identified here does not negatively impact electricity production, and is also compatible with the challenging tritium breeding requirements of fusion power plant design because (n, 2n) reactions of 198Hg drive both transmutation and neutron multiplication

    Monte Carlo transport calculations show that neutrons produced in a tokamak power plant can convert the abundant isotope 198Hg to stable 197Au via the (n,2n) channel, yielding several tonnes of gold per plant-year without compromising the tritium breeding ratio.

    The decommissioned blanket material would increase in value, and the Mercury-198 in the blanket doesn’t majorly impact its effectiveness in transmuting lithium to tritium.

    The “worst” gold isotope half-life is less than a year, so only a modest cool-down is needed for the output:

    197Au to be Class 7 when activity concentration is > 2700 pCi/g, which is reached after 13.7 years for the initial concentration listed.

    An even more stringent constraint can be applied for any gold that will be regularly handled by the general population. As a highly conservative requirement, we can stipulate that this gold must be less radioactive than a banana. Due to 40K content, bananas have an activity of ∼ 3520 pCi/kg, or about 420 pCi for a single banana. To meet this requirement, a troy ounce of gold with the initial isotope mix shown in Table 2 must sit for about 17.7 years to be below a banana equivalent level of activity.

    What strikes me here with this paper is the suggested liquid blanket, so this would be a kin of D-T Fusion MSR. We now have two proposed technologies behind being able handle hot radioactive liquids.

    • Goodtoknow@lemmy.ca
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      9 days ago

      must sit for about 17.7 years to be below a banana equivalent level of activity.

      Banana for scale!

    • dejected_warp_core@lemmy.world
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      9 days ago

      It also helps that we’re talking about rather dense nuclei too. So it’s not just a neutron absorbing blanket, but a rather high-performing one at that. Which you need to convert fusion outputs to heat and power anyway. And gold is soluble in mercury anyway, so extraction is already a known (albeit incredibly dangerous) process. Win-win.

      yielding several tonnes of gold per plant-year

      Mother of god that’s a lot to magic-up outta nowhere. At first I thought this would disrupt the market, but it looks like yearly global gold production is around 3000 tons a year. So it would take a lot of reactors to impact the gold market, so… yeah. Reactors really could start paying for themselves.

      • ulterno@programming.dev
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        8 days ago

        Reactors really could start paying for themselves.

        Yeah, that should help them with their capital, storage costs and Hg procurement costs.
        Now back to the energy generation…

    • humanspiral@lemmy.ca
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      8 days ago

      The safe level isn’t that important, because the gold can be put into an ETF investment vehicle, which is a substantial enough demand for gold. National reserves (the vast majority of gold demand) too are long term holders.

      2t/GWhth is a huge amount. While the best case economics for fusion is 30c/kwh cost = $3m/Gwhe, that would be 3GWhth = 6T of gold. Even at $45/oz (1/100th of current value) that would be $8m/Gwhe revenue, and would likely be able to sell electricity at market rates as the “waste product”, or not even bother with the expense/complexity of electricity generation.

        • 5190tent@lemmy.world
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          8 days ago

          Look at the gold price for the last 10 years, it’s steadily rising. We keep producing more electronics that need gold. At the same time some gold is lost because not in all tech it can be easily recycled. On top of that gold mining is becoming more expensive because a lot of easily accessible gold has been mined out.

          So even if this technology could create additional gold in the future it probably won’t out scale the growing demand.

        • Pyr@lemmy.ca
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          8 days ago

          I can’t imagine it would be any different than a new gold mine opening up somewhere in the world.

        • humanspiral@lemmy.ca
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          8 days ago

          global mine production is 10t per day. 120t/day from single 1gw e plant does sink value substantially, but is a drop in the bucket compared to 80k tons of copper/day. Gold is a better copper I think, so maybe a floor value of $20/kg. But to subsidize fusion energy by 20c/kwh, it needs to stay above $11/oz . Gold is also a better silver, but silver production is 80t/day, and so gold is unlikely to hold that threshhold value.

          A bigger deal is that we are collectively too politically stupid to have “golden goose fusion”. Our blessed oligarchs deserve better than their heathen oligarchs, and it is perfectly normal to diminish and warcruise them. Nuclear power already isn’t war resilient, and destroying one is something Ukraine has seen propaganda value in doing due to media control that would blame Russia for it. So, our collective stupidity is already at extreme levels. But the play in golden goose fusion is buy all the ultra cheap gold after mine closures, and then destroy all the golden geese. Destroy all attempts to build new ones.

          • Eranziel@lemmy.world
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            7 days ago

            I’m not really familiar with the proposed scale of fusion plants, but how do you get to 120t/day? The paper says the theoretical gold output is 2t/GWth/year.

            • humanspiral@lemmy.ca
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              7 days ago

              then I am way off. I read off blury thumbnai, GWh-thermal. Your version makes it negligeable gold production.

  • brucethemoose@lemmy.world
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    9 days ago

    My first thought was “what happens to all that gold under neutron irradiation?” Apparently it transmutes back to Mercury 198 with beta decay, which is the wrong isotope. But if Mercury 198 gets hit again… I think it turns into 199, which is also stable?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold-198

    A lot of papers for these reactions are behind stupid subscription paywalls :(

    Still though, it does seem extremely fortuitous, and it’s possible the gold doesn’t become impossibly radioactive. Maybe there’s some other chain that will cause problems, but the immediate concern in the bulk materials seems… alright.

    • humanspiral@lemmy.ca
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      8 days ago

      uhm… if gold198 turns back into mercury in 64 hours, and is radioactive in the meantime… that sucks. But what they are doing is turning Mercury198 into mercury197, and that decays into (real) gold197 … afaiu.

  • _stranger_@lemmy.world
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    9 days ago

    As soon as they figure out how to turn lead into porn, we’ll be driving personal fusion powered space cars to mars.

  • DeathsEmbrace@lemmy.world
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    9 days ago

    I wouldnt believe shit until they’ve answered the stability behind these reactions. Like the Lead article where they transformed lead into another element maybe Gold…? Ok but now you would have an unstable isotope of gold that would decay.

    Edit: I read the article and it’s stable in theory.

    • neatchee@piefed.social
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      9 days ago

      Homie, Au-197 is what’s being created, as stated in the screenshot, and it is the stable isotope of gold. It’s the naturally occurring one.

      And the reaction doesn’t need to be especially stable on its own when it is a bonus byproduct of existing fusion reactor processes. The point is that we can take existing and new reactors, add this process, and immediately gain significantly extra value from the stuff we’re already doing.

      it’s like hybrid electric cars that charge their batteries using the brakes. You’re already braking and losing a ton of energy as waste. ANY way to recapture and use that waste energy that yields more value than the materials required to capture it, is an immediate win.

    • Rentlar@lemmy.ca
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      9 days ago

      If we could go back in time to tell the alchemy conspiracists about disappearing gold that would be wild.

  • mvirts@lemmy.world
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    8 days ago

    And just like that gold is a proof of work currency. Too bad those economics will change as gold becomes less scarce. Buy mercury now!

  • Arthur Besse@lemmy.ml
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    10 days ago

    https://www.marathonfusion.com/alchemy.pdf

    https://thebsdetector.substack.com/p/government-funded-alchemy

    tldr from that blog's assessment:

    First, the researchers have a high degree of credential credibility. […] These are very much not software engineers who think they’ve solved alchemy after talking with ChatGPT for a year or something.

    […]

    Optimistically, in my mind this leaves about 10% odds that fusion energy becomes commercialized or at least piloted over the next couple decades and Marathon Fusion’s approach for the alchemical production of gold becomes a meaningful consideration for these fusion plants! That’s pretty high, and implies a high value for continuing to research this technology, even if not necessarily for Marathon Fusion specifically. Manifold [a prediction market] traders are giving this proposition (“Artificially produced gold on a significant scale by 2035?”) ~20% odds, which likely reflects the discount rate on a market that only resolves in 10 years, although it also leaves room for other potential methodologies for gold production (presumably also through fusion energy but who knows).

    […]

    Oh ya, this Gold is Radioactive

  • brucethemoose@lemmy.world
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    9 days ago

    Another thing fusion reactors would be good for is “burning” high radioactivity fission waste.

    …Keeping such waste in a hole isn’t that expensive, so maybe the economic viability is questionable, but still. Fusion is great sources of very high temperature neutrons for anything that needs it.

    That being said, I’m skeptical of all the other stuff needed to make it practical. Like, say, the extreme neutron flux making all that incredible expensive containment equipment radioactive.

  • whoisearth@lemmy.ca
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    9 days ago

    Shit like this is what makes me question if this is our first run around or if we are looping a creation/destruction loop.

    Ancient astronauts.

    Younger dryas.

    Unified flood myths.

    Objects out of place in the larger historical context.

    No historical records past cave paintings.

    I’m just a bit of a nutter on this. Maybe alchemy was us trying to re-enact what our more advanced ancestors could do before something reset us. Maybe we were so advanced everything was digital and that’s why there’s no records. Books break down. Digital media breaks down. Know what doesn’t? Stone. But you can only do so much to tell people thousands of years from now. So you do what you can do. Oral storytelling, but then languages get lost and evolve but things persist.

    It’s a great concept for fantasy or sci Fi.

    Anyways I digress.

    • m0darn@lemmy.ca
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      9 days ago

      It’s a neat idea for sure, but the out of place artifacts are rarely/never as mysterious as people like Graham Hancock would suggest.

      Younger Dryas wasn’t as catastrophic either. Nor are flood myths as unified.

      It’s fun to imagine possibilities like that but I can’t conceive of how a society could advance to a nonphysical/digital technology paradigm without impacting the earth in enormously detectable ways.

      I think it’s interesting to imagine a scenario like what if European explorers shipwrecked on a place like Rapa Nui, the most isolated inhabitable place on the planet. How many generations could they maintain knowledge of the globe, and their culture.

      Obviously the Polynesians basically maintained their language (ie it was identifiable as a polynesian dialect) for ~500+ years in plausibly total isolation.