I hate that evil Emperor Palpatine. That’s why I support Dedra Meero for Emperor. She’s a real firecracker that believes in the righteousness of the Empire to maintain order.
Thank you. I really don’t get those people.
And I mean, the Democratic party doesn’t exist in a vacuum. If you don’t try to change anything, of course the awful “moderates” stay in charge. But it is possible to overtake them, just look at Mamdani. But some people won’t even try that because “it’s a lost case”…
He now holds the primary attendance record in NYC. It was only 30% of eligible voters, up from 21% in the last election. That’s literally all it takes. We just need to show the fuck up.
Congressional primaries see less than 15% attendance. We’ve been letting retirees pack our ballots with centrists for 40 years, then complain about our choices in the general elections. We wouldn’t be calling for term limits if we consistently participated in primaries.
Well that and ranked choice, right?
He won majority first round. Granted, I’d love to see ranked-choice in our federal elections, but that didn’t matter in Mamdani’s case.
No “progressive” will have an answer for you on this. Voting isn’t the answer, blah blah blah. But it seems no one ever really tried. Otherwise maybe they’d just organize people into voting in every primary.
No “progressive” will have an answer for you on this. Voting isn’t the answer, blah blah blah. But it seems no one ever really tried. Otherwise maybe they’d just organize people into voting in every primary.
If you don’t try to change anything, of course the awful “moderates” stay in charge.
Trying to change thing is exactly what the Uncommitted movement tried to do. And while they failed to move the needle in the 2024 election, in 2028, the Democrats will have to think a lot more about whether they want to keep losing in exchange for supporting genocide.
Remember, it’s always “the most important election ever.” Every election is billed as that. But sometimes you need to be willing to accept a short-term loss in exchange for long-term progress. Myopically focusing on just the election right in front of you is how we got into this mess in the first place.
Kamala losing gave space for someone like Mamdani to win. It’s clear that corporate DNC centrism is a toxic losing brand. If Kamala had won, it is extremely unlikely that Mamdani would have won the NYC primary.
Trying to change thing is exactly what the Uncommitted movement tried to do
Where did I say anything bad about them? It was about the primary and not about the general election.
I actually get your point in theory as you could see elections in a game theory type of setting. The problem is that the last elections have been “the most important election ever” because well… they have gotten increasingly more significant and important. 2016 allowed Trump to shift the Supreme Court long-term and change decades-old consensus. It alone almost got him to do a coup. 2020 could have very well literally enabled that, and 2024 well… just look at everything that is happen. This is not the beginning of fascism, that’s well some steps inside.
I get the theory, and if the opponent was a McCain I could even understand your thought. But if it’s the election of 1930, where every vote counts to defeat the bigger evil, it’s not the time to sit it out for future benefits.
Literal accelerationism. Jesus fucking Christ.
Every election since I could vote (early 2000s) has been the most important.
Why? Because the results built the Supreme Court that curtailed every progressive policy achievement and accelerated our current descent into fascism.
Without GWB you don’t have Roberts or Alito. Without Trump you don’t have Gorsuch, Cavanaugh, or Barrett.
Those fuckers have lifetime appointments. One lost election sets us back decades. The only good time for a protest vote is the primary.
The point is that socialism cannot be achieved by electoral means. At best, if the masses in the street really pressure those in power, you get social democracy. That being said the choice for Americans was neoliberalism or fascism. The reasons for fascism winning go deeper than “the left was to whinny”, but that’s beside the point being made here.
Okay, so, which is easier for socialists to organize under? Neoliberalism, or fascism?
Don’t you see? Only when it’s all ashes can we start the utopia. /s
Neoliberalism, obviously. Kamala probably wouldn’t be in favour of people being abducted off the street and shoved into unmarked vans.
Apparently that very controversial position makes us shitlibs instead of people who would like to not be abducted by unmarked secret police and taken to a black site while we try to organize socialist political movements.
There are goals before socialism that ARE achievable electorally which are still worth pursuing in the meantime, like stalling fascists, or prevent genocide of immigrants and queer folks
We need never be afraid of the vote of informed Americans. It is only the ignorant voter we have to fear, ignorant politically, no matter how fine his house or how expensive his schooling. Such people have never experienced democracy; they have merely enjoyed its benefits. It is hard to explain what democracy is; it is necessary to participate in it to understand it.
The former Berlin businessman I referred to earlier told me that he blamed his own group, people with the time and the money and the opportunity to know better, for what happened to Germany. “We ignored Hitler,” he said. “We considered him an unimportant fellow, not quite a gentleman, not of our own class. We considered it just a little bit vulgar to bother with him, to bother with politics at all.”
They thought of the government as “They.” The only possible route to a clear conscience in politics is to accept political responsibility, either as an active member of the party in power or as an equally active member of the loyal opposition.
—Robert A. Heinlein, Take Back Your Government
You know how before the elections we say that it’s not the time to nitpick the Democratic Party because it’s more important to have it win so that the fascist won’t win?
Well, now we are not before elections, which means that now it is the time to nitpick the Democratic Party.
Hell yeah. Nitpick away. Push for actual left politicians. Go canvas for a candidate who better meets your ideals. Don’t forget to vote in primaries and local elections.
Also don’t forget that we need to actually make it to having elections for the next 4 years to even start trying to turn this ship around.
What does that have to do with what I’m saying?
Where did I say “Don’t criticize the Dems!”
I’m saying “Next election that comes about, maybe don’t fucking purity politics us into literal Nazi death camps like you did this time, you twats”
I don’t think they’re addressing anything you said, but they are supporting the lefty part where we should be self critical. I would too.
That’s what pisses me off about these tribalists coming out to parrot the post-defeat “it wasn’t our fault for not trying to be appealing, it was the fault of the plebes for not supporting us” DNC propaganda.
“Always blame the peasants, never the kings!”
It’s hilariously subservient and the avoidance of change inside the Democrat Party that this “let’s not criticize our leaders” aims to achive pretty much guarantees a similar result next time the Democrats face a Republican populist - Fascism - and that part is the very opposite of hilarious.
It’s also seriously hypocrite to cloak yourself in a “we want to protect trans people” cloak whilst fighting against the criticism of the Democrat Party that can change the very leaders whose choices and strategies resulted in the current situation where trans people are getting harmed: if they genuinelly wanted to protect trans people from harm, they would not spend their time trying divert criticism away from their holy cows.
And you have shit libs still clabbering about how the 2024 General ended up.
Can we not pivot and look to the future? Are Democrats secretly wanting to Make Democrats Great Again, like they once were?
Ffs
Two different things, “nitpicking” and then, you know, voting (for Dems).
And our nitpicking and low approval of the Democrats is now a key talking point for Republicans. I may be ignorant but I’m not seeing changes in leadership which is why the approval rating is low. We want something locked and loaded and with sure footing by the midterms so that, at minimum, messaging is on point. But so far they haven’t done anything to appeal to people and actually create a platform that energizes people. They need a leftist issue that makes people as irrationally angry as trans girls in high school sports does for MAGAts.
also time to nitpick fundamentalist beliefs and deradicalize before the inevitable bullshit wedge issue campaigns in the run up to the next elections
Wonder where all those people are? Immediately after the election for several months lemmy was full of people blaming how shitty things turned out on anyone but themselves. “It’s the Democrats fault I didn’t vote even though I know trump is a fascist POS!”
NOBODY thinks the dems are great. They’re fucked up.
But they’re not Alligator Auschwitz fucked up. They’re not screw the country with tariffs fucked up. They’re not ICE Gestapo fucked up.
But that’s not the non-voters fault because this is better than some neo-lib winning.
But they’re not Alligator Auschwitz fucked up.
Do you have any evidence that the next democratic president will close Trump’s new immigration camps? Because they didn’t the last time. They kept all of Trump’s aggressive immigration programs and even expanded them. If history is any guide, the next democratic president will be just as cruel to immigrants as Trump is now. Biden didn’t let up at all from Trump’s cruel treatment of immigrants. Democrats just adopted the Republican immigration polices wholesale.
Do you have any evidence that I won’t win a $60 million dollar lottery prize next week? I play the lottery occasionally…
This is such a tired narrative. You guys really want to focus on the leftists when half the country voted for an authoritarian?
Every movement has its radical fringe. Virtue signaling either your ideological purity or your solidarity with the only viable opposition are equally feeble attempts at clinging to a notion of victory in the face of total defeat.
EDIT: I wasn’t expecting this comment to generate discussion but since it did, let me elaborate on what I meant by “total defeat.” The defeat is not an electoral loss, it’s the fact that we have relinquished so much political power that all we have left is voting for one of a set of compromised politicians every few years. It’s a tired argument because it assumes that it’s possible to vote our way out of the mess we’re in, and it simply isn’t. We need to attack the point of production because it’s where the ruling class derives its power. And arguing about our sham elections is getting us nowhere.
This is a bad metaphor. I agree harm reduction helps, but Democrats are not owed a vote and the obsession with blaming what is apparently a small minority of voters or the sole reason Democrats lost depending what is convenient, is truly damning of liberals.
If libs put half the effort into courting leftists they do in blaming leftists perhaps they’d win. Instead a group of people who would by and left never vote for a dem anyway, didn’t vote for them.
This is the bed they made and now they want to blame everyone else for shitting their pants.
but Democrats are not owed a vote
I’m so glad you decided that Blue Circus wasn’t OWED your vote, so letting minorities be genocided is an okay consequences you’re willing to live with.
This is such a tired narrative. You guys really want to focus on the leftists when half the country voted for an authoritarian?
Scratch a liberal, a fascist bleeds
see now this is doing the same room temp IQ shit as fugjesus
Not All Leftists: are anti-DNC purity non-voters
Not All Liberals: are the MLK “white moderate” type who will vote Republican if lefties are mean to them
Sure, that might be true of individuals but that phrase, or at least variants of it (ie. “The Social Democrats are The Left-Wing of Fascism”), have existed since the rise of the Nazis.
The idea being that liberal institutions will sooner do the work of fascism by punching left, rather than making common cause to fight fascism. And this meme isn’t helping that perception by punching left.
Phrases existing does not mean there is truth, just that there is an aspect that feels true, look at all the people that have adopted “hard men create good times” etc as a mantra.
I don’t think making hostile comments (saying all libs are fascists) is productive at all, and obviously individuals are not responsible for entire institutions, or even other people that share their principles but are also assholes.
The bottom line is the left has a problem with members who choose their own moral superiority over the wellbeing of the nation and themselves.
That’s a problem that needs to be talked about.
I voted for Harris, am I allowed to be mad that the Democrats are still gung ho about Israeli genocide yet? Or do I need to shout blue no matter who for another few decades?
Not voting and voting for trump were both stupid choices. But attacking people who didn’t vote for trump instead of those who did is fucking bananas and I don’t get the point of this. Are we expecting a resounding vote in 2028 for Harris again is going to fix everything? Come the fuck on.
Being pissed about Israeli genocide and thinking that it’s okay to welcome in Nazis who promise to intensify the genocide if you feel really strongly that reducing genocide isn’t good enough are two entirely different concepts.
Asspatting the latter is a request for them to play purity politics if we ever get a chance to vote again. And if we dig ourselves out of this fucking hole, the last thing I want to see is for us to jump right back into it because “The Dems aren’t opposing genocide enough! We NEED to let the pro-genocide candidate win and murder a few million extra people to teach the DNC a lesson!”
People were saying up to a year before the election that they wouldnt vote democrat unless they stopped supporting genocide. Maybe if reductionists like you hadn’t been shouting over them calling them russian trolls and pledging your undying support to the democratic candidate no matter who they are, then they would have seen how it was affecting their polls and pivoted. Instead you continue to prove to them that they can get away with anything. I dont uderstand the obtuse refusal to see that laying down an ultimatum and drawing a line in the sand is the only bargaining power you have, even if you dont intend to follow through with it, it wouldve been worth withholding support from biden and harris as long as possible.
You make an ultimatum, you better be ready for the consequences. You bet that removing support from Israel would get the Dems more votes than it would lose them, net. The Dem campaign disagreed - rightly or wrongly, it’s uncertain, but probably wrongly.
Now, because of that game of chicken you played, Donald Trump is discussing how bigly he’s going to help Israel genocide Gaza and the West Bank, millions are projected to die from the aid cuts already executed, immigrants are being rounded up in concentration camps, and the death penalty is being discussed for LGBT folk.
Welcome to the consequences.
Why is the blame placed on individuals that would be lucky if they made up more than 1% of the population that makes up the “online leftist”?
Seriously. How is the only opposition party not the one that decided they would “play chicken”? You blame people for playing “chicken” but ignore the actual political party with money and organization that clearly decided to play chicken themselves. Hell, they’re the ones that literally decided to play that game.
Somehow the criticism and blame is placed on unorganized “online leftist”.
It wasn’t the online left. It was the vast majority of normies that thought about their vote for all of 30 seconds and said : “Yeah, I don’t like all the dead babies I keep hearing about. I’ll stay home or vote Trump i guess”
Stop pretending it’s some cringe online leftist. You’re delusional.
Seriously. How is the only opposition party not the one that decided they would “play chicken”?
Holy fucking shit, for the millionth time, more than one actor can be guilty at once
Am I discussing quantum physics to you people or something?
It’s because actions speak louder than words, you dolt.
Your actions are “only ever criticize the actual left” and so you are regarded as insincere because WERE ON THE SAME SIDE. But instead you NEED to be morally superior and make sure everyone knows it. It’s the same as the people who didn’t vote for Harris and their constant whinging about how the Dems never listen and theirs was the only MORAL vote. I think that shit was dumb, too, but at least they have principles.
If you just look at your actions, it appears you want to delegitimize the left in favor of the “centrist” dems as though moving right is a viable strategy that has worked for the Dems in the past. Basically, we see a clown.
We probably have our political differences but I’m glad you see the failures of “centrist opposition”. Well said.
Centrism in the political landscape of America is nothing more than a support of a right-wing policy shift.
If you were explaining quantum mechanics you’d probably start with the fundamentals of understanding momentum and position.
It’s funny you make an analogy like that. Because you’re completely ignoring both the position that the Democratic party is in AND the momentum they have in driving discourse.
Do I have to explain it to you?! Do you think the comparison between “online leftist” and the Democratic party is in the same “quantum level”? (Yes I’m stretching the satire here it’s a joke don’t take it too seriously.)
But seriously, it’s not about “guilty parties” it’s about the degree in which they are able to influence the political landscape.
You are critizing the smallest sliver of the nearly non existing left in order to avoid criticism of the only party that had any chance of preventing the rise of fascism we are experiencing now.
And that party did absolutely fuck all to prevent it. So, please. Explain to me you’re “enlightened centrist” take on why the failure of the Democratic party and it’s outright genocide were the fault of the “online left”.
I’d really love that physics lecture.
So what about your own guilt in being a pushover that never needs considering?
That might be more compelling if the people I fucking vote for in the primary decided to disregard my opinions when they got to the general.
Instead, I have to deal with the fact that I’m an electoral minority whose options in the primary never get to the general because my fellow progressives would sooner sit at home and jerk off during primary season instead of voting, which is why Bernie only garnered 25% of the fucking vote in 2020 to Biden’s 50%, despite Biden being a centrist ghoul. Which means I have to deal with the majority choice of both parties entering into the general, which is “Centrist ghoul vs. Literal Nazi” since 2016.
I voted for Harris, am I allowed to be mad that the Democrats are still gung ho about Israeli genocide yet?
Sure are.
Because you did the right thing to help your country, despite being upset about a single issue.
You are not part of the problem.
As a trans person, you can suck my girl dick. I am not a cudgel to be used by shitty libs to sheepdog votes for their nonexistent policy.
Trans rights keep being eroded, regardless of who is in power, because the Democratic Party isn’t doing anything to preserve them.
Trans rights keep being eroded, regardless of who is in power, because the Democratic Party isn’t doing anything to preserve them.
… would you like to outline where trans rights were in 2024 in comparison to where they were in 1990, and also inform me which parties were in power in the intervening years?
Dems being insufficient and Dems being backsliders are two entirely different concepts. Dems are absolutely insufficiently supportive of trans rights. Dem politicians are also the primary vehicle through which trans rights have been encoded into law.
Saying “Dem politicians” are the reason trans rights were encoded into law strips trans people of our political agency. You’re effectively saying the quiet part out loud by denying us political agency, or even a role in our own political history.
Trans rights have been fought and won over decades, long before 1990, by trans people. Often outside of traditional political, not to mention medical, avenues. The Democratic Party, as an institution, only picked up on encoding those rights into law, when there was the pressure and inertia was such that it was beneficial to their coalition to do so.
In 2024, when that coalition was proven to have collapsed, in large part because of the additude you’re taking here, trans people were some of the first to be thrown under the bus and blamed.
Saying “Dem politicians” are the reason trans rights were encoded into law strips trans people of our political agency. You’re effectively saying the quiet part out loud by denying us political agency, or even a role in our own political history.
… tell me again, who encoded trans rights into law, if not Dem politicians?
You… you do realize things that are encoded into law are, by definition, done by politicians in essentially all cases except ballot initiatives, right?
… right…?
For that matter, you do realize that many trans folk, both historically and contemporarily, have been Dem activists and politicians, precisely because the Dems have been much more ameniable to enshrining trans rights into law, and thus an easier vehicle to do so with? Would you… would you like to remind me, of the parties “Republican”, “Democrat”, and “None”, which does the only current trans Congresswoman belong to?
Trans rights have been fought and won over decades, long before 1990, by trans people. Often outside of traditional political, not to mention medical, avenues. The Democratic Party, as an institution, only picked up on encoding those rights into law, when there was the pressure and inertia was such that it was beneficial to their coalition to do so.
… yes…? That’s… that’s how democracies work…?
In 2024, when that coalition was proven to have collapsed, in large part because of the additude you’re taking here,
So when the coalition ‘collapses’, losing by the massive amount of [checks notes] 1% after millions of people who previously voted decided that abstaining out of purity politics interested them in a time of conveniently-high propaganda, it’s because… people like me wanted them to NOT abstain out of purity politics?
trans people were some of the first to be thrown under the bus and blamed.
Some Dem ghouls have tried to blame trans folk. The vast majority of Dems, even careerist ghouls, still support trans rights.
CIA ass post
True but it’s a minor point. Even if every single lefty held the line it wouldn’t have made a difference. The people who didn’t vote were mostly disengaged normal people and the blame for that is squarely on the Democrats for sucking absolute shit on purpose because of big money in politics.
Have some perspective, pick better fights with worse people. I personally find it extremely unmoving when the left chastises people over politics so good job emulating one of their worst and least politically effective qualities.
Instead, I humbly suggest you try to inspire a shred of hope among the cynical and apathetic - but deep down actually very cool people of the Earth🌠
True but it’s a minor point. Even if every single lefty held the line it wouldn’t have made a difference. The people who didn’t vote were mostly disengaged normal people and the blame for that is squarely on the Democrats for sucking absolute shit on purpose because of big money in politics.
As I’ve repeatedly pointed out, this is demonstrably not true on the Gaza issue ALONE.
But who needs facts and data when you have vibes to defend and assert as truth?
Have some perspective, pick better fights with worse people. I personally find it extremely unmoving when the left chastises people over politics so good job emulating one of their worst and least politically effective qualities.
I love the part where leftists peddling little Nazi enablement get asspats, but anyone criticizing them gets the fucking tone police weeping over their poor wittle hurt feelings.
not true on the Gaza issue ALONE.
There were two pro-palestine campaigns: The Uncommited movement and Abandon Harris. The Uncommited people ended up endorsing Kamala, while Abandon Harris endorsed Jill Stein - who only got 0.56 % of the vote. So not only would it make no fucking difference if every single Jill voter had gone for Kamala, but the rest of the movement ACTIVELY supported Harris. And this movement was not even the left - it included the left sure, but it was a broad coalition of various demographics - not JUST the left!
So show me the data - I am not going through your comment history looking for it.
https://www.commondreams.org/news/harris-gaza
A YouGov poll backed by the Institute for Middle East Understanding (IMEU) Policy Project and released on Wednesday showed that among the 19 million people who voted for President Joe Biden in 2020 but did not vote in 2024, nearly a third named Israel’s U.S.-backed war on Gaza as a top reason for staying home.
You are telling me that these 19 million people are terminally online stalinists instead of opinion-having normal people?
Is there a secret bit in the article that proves that part? You said it was demonstrable facts and data and then did a backflip and folded your arms so I really hope you aren’t making shit up right now
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1/3 of 19 million is 6.33 million. And honestly, if you told me that there were 6.33 million terminally online Stalinists in America, a country of some 330 million people, I might look at you a bit askew, but it wouldn’t be out of the question.
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Your original accusation that it wasn’t ‘left’ voters who abstained, but ‘mostly disengaged normal people’. I don’t know how many normal people you talk to, but I assure you, in the US, even the moderately political are generally tuned the fuck out on foreign affairs. For someone to abstain for the issue of Gaza, specifically, is not ‘mostly disengaged’ nor ‘normal people’; by and large, they would have been in the top half of engaged voters, at the least - and considering overwhelming US opinions on Israel and Palestine, even by 2024 (which saw the first major shift in my lifetime on the issue), those who abstained would have overwhelmingly been strongly pro-Palestine types.
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Left narratives absolutely influenced the broader discussion on the Palestine genocide, including the notion that “both sides” (of the American political spectrum) were entirely identical on the subject, allowing the GOP to go all-in to appeal to Zionists whilst simultaneously and effectively painting the Dems as antisemitic (to Zionists) and Israeli genocidaires (to anti-Zionists), as seen by GOP strategists running ads simultaneously pushing both negative views in swing states with large Jewish or Arabic populations.
Lets back up a bit.
You claimed that the Gaza issue ‘alone’ proved your point. So originally you were suggesting that not only those 6 mil were left fanatics, but the other 12 mil as well? *
My claim is that there are two groups: crazy abstaining leftoids and normal people who lean left. The Dems lost because they failed to effectively appeal to this second group. You might think that this group is stupid - I’m not arguing that, lots of groups have poor judgement and they are definitely not the worst, but it’s still besides the point.
I think that group can be mobilized with a good campaign that appeals to those people. I think that’s a big part of how Mamdani got unprecedentedly high turnout in New York. I don’t think that everyone who voted for him was a mad lefty.
- btw, I want to point out the study said that those people listed Gaza as ‘their top issue’, not their exclusive reason for abstaining. Saying that every single person who listed Gaza as their top issue for abstaining was some kind of terminal lefty is a mad enough claim in itself.
You claimed that the Gaza issue ‘alone’ proved your point. So originally you were suggesting that not only those 6 mil were left fanatics, but the other 12 mil as well? *
My point is not that they’re ‘fanatics’, my point is that they chose to abstain from voting for the sake of some abstract notion of left purity despite this leading directly to the murder of MORE of the people they claimed to be standing up for, and in service to the genocidaires they claimed to be standing against. I mean, fuck’s sake, the Israeli far-right was openly celebrating Trump’s win, and openly pulling for him before that.
Enough of that 6 million were left-leaning and voted on purity politics concerns, as demonstrated by the top issue named being Gaza, not a traditionally right-wing or centrist issue, and one that polling backed up even at the time as overwhelmingly the concern of left-leaning voters, not centrist or right-leaning voters, that Harris, a centrist ghoul but the anti-fascist coalition candidate, lost by a paltry ~2 million votes, leading the literal Nazi candidate to win.
My claim is that there are two groups: crazy abstaining leftoids and normal people who lean left. The Dems lost because they failed to effectively appeal to this second group.
There was considerable cross-pollination of ideas between the fringe left in 2024 on the Gaza issue and the mainstream; I find it would be a very difficult argument, then, to make that the ‘normal people who lean left’ were not similarly ‘enjoying’ a cross-pollination of narratives of that variety, especially since the ultimate decision made was to abstain from voting despite one candidate being distinctively and significantly worse on the issue than the other. That fringe left groups openly pushed the idea that “both sides” were the same on the issue of Gaza in 2024, it would seem difficult to suggest that ‘normal people who lean left’ were immune to narrative suggestions by ideological allies, while mainstream sources and folk were uniquely suggestible.
What’s more, where and why is the distinction made? If the reason for abstaining is predicated on the same insane ideas, that one worships Stalin and the other ‘only’ thinks that left-purity on an issue is worth genociding Gazans and Americans alike is a minor detail. My claim is not that the majority of those who abstained on the Gaza issue are Stalinists, but that they, based on insane ideas of purity and overwhelmingly on leftist grounds, not right-wing or centrist grounds (as neither right-wing nor centrists are particularly anti-Gazan genocide in appreciable numbers, nor are they ordinarily reliable Dem voters), cratered our last hope of averting all of… this. Regardless of what happens going forward, we very much did not avert goddamn anything, and we very easily could have.
The ‘R/Stalinisgreat’ reference is sardonic, not literal.
I think that group can be mobilized with a good campaign that appeals to those people.
I think we’re arguing about different things.
My point is not that these people cannot be reached under any circumstances. My point is that here, on Lemmy, people constantly talk about how abstaining is a perfectly acceptable and moral choices under grounds of left-purity. For that matter, the attitude is far from restricted to the Gaza situation; the Gaza genocide is just the purity politics issue which is most starkly leftist and the one most often praised on here, whereas the broader argument is that this whole purity politics bullshit is bad and contrary to the point of political participation for anyone with a hint of actual morality instead of masturbatory self-indulgence dressed up as civic interest.
As the meme points on, no amount of street cred or internal fuzzies justifies murdering people for no gain for anyone except the people you (generic you) claim to be enemies with. This was a bad decision; in fact, it was an outright immoral decision, and it should be recognized as such. That many people on here insist on lionizing this decision as some heroic blow against ‘the Man’ is not only morally repugnant, but actively encourages a repeat of this purity-politics behavior the next time the issue of “Please for the love of God unite against the literal goddamn Nazis” comes up, whether in an electoral context or an… uglier one. And in support of that, you can look at any number of historical revolutions which fell to infighting, even at the cost of their own literal lives; the successful revolutions succeed because unity politics, not purity politics, are the narrative successfully pushed in service to defeating the greater fucking evil.
By normalizing this purity-politics outlook wherein people are encouraged to sabotage anti-fascist coalition efforts based on nebulous ideas of strategic civic-duty decisions as a spiritualist, personal matter, we set up the scene for this exact kind of situation to happen again. To be quite honest with you, having my life potentially condemned by people who claim to be the allies of folk like me, on what is theoretically on behalf of folk they, likewise, have condemned in greater numbers, is a shit deal to go through even once. I would rather not go through it twice, assuming I get to live that long.
I’m not looking forward to RFK’s camps for concentration. I’m not looking forward to having Medicaid stripped from me and ending up unmedicated and vomiting blood on the floor of my bathroom, again, this time probably until I exsanguinate. I’m not looking forward to hearing about Israel finishing up their long-desired genocide in both Gaza and the West Bank. I’m not looking forward to hearing the horror stories from Alligator Auschwitz. I’m not looking forward to hearing about whatever murderous fuckwit plans the administration has for trans folk. I’m not looking forward to the 6 million projected deaths from the pointlessly cruel abolition of US aid internationally. I’m not looking forward to hearing how many additional Ukrainians are going to die because the US is now simping for Russian genocide and imperialism. And I’m really fucking tired of hearing people talk about how letting all of this happen was Great, Actually, because it fulfilled some need to keep a pure soul for the Leftist Afterlife™.
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Dude complaining about it isn’t helping. You aren’t entitled to anyone else’s vote. They can vote how they want. I don’t like it either but that’s how democracy works.
Focus your energy on something you can control
You aren’t entitled to anyone else’s vote.
I never said I was. Like Trump voters, however, using one’s power to vote to enable literal fucking Nazis is worthy of fucking criticism.
You aren’t entitled to anyone else’s vote.
All this is informing them how utterly and horribly ineffective protest-non-voting and 3rd party voting is.
Ok but it’s too late he is already the president. Thanks for telling them I guess but I’m sick of hearing it. It’s not helping I’ll downvote this shit all day
… And the next election, protest-non-voting and 3rd party could will be just as ineffective.
This has been going on for decades. This isn’t just about 2024. It’s also 2000 and Gore. 2016 and Hilary. Hell you could even include 2010, 2012, 2014 under Obama where he lost Congress. And 2018 when Biden lost Congress. And 1994, 1996, 1998 when Clinton lost Congress. Etc.
So no it’s not too late because it seems we have to educate protest non voters and 3rd party voters pretty close to every single election.
There have also been people saying the same thing you are for decades and yet here we are. But surely your post will be the one that convinces everyone.
My problem really isn’t the message you are trying to get across it’s more so the arrogance that you are using to say it. It sounds pompous and condescending. Like you know better than those people. You’re just some douche on the Internet like the rest of us lol.
Why would someone listen to anything you say if you insult their intelligence while saying it?
The education continues.
Lmao accusing me of arrogance. You are dripping with it Mr. “But surely your post will be the one that convinces everyone.” Lol you are everything you accuse other people of being. AND (just gonna fill this part in) look at what it’s gotten everyone. That’s literally the whole point.
The dems are literally rolling over for fascism. They are complicit.
Tankies telling people to not vote is rolling over for fascism.
I feel like takes like this come from people with no long term memory. Do you remember the pro-palestinian crowd begging Kamala Harris to even pretend like she’d do something to help? And she basically told them to vote for Trump? Blame the Democratic party for choosing to be fascism-light instead of actual resistance.
Multiple people are at fault
- Republicans for being literal Nazis
- Democrats for selling their souls to AIPAC and ignoring their constituents
- Protest voters for not seeing Trump as enough of a threat
- The two party system for allowing this to happen in the first place
- Billionaires for funding a literal Nazi
- The Israeli government for waves hands
As someone who had to leave behind everything and flee the US for safety (2025 was lining up to be a damn good year dammit), I am furious at all of the above
That’s mostly fair, but “protest voters” still didn’t throw the election. If you added all third party votes to Democrats instead, you’d still have a trump presidency. This is after Harris ran a very right-wing campaign. They bet hard on Zionism, “border security” and military strength and they lost, partly because Trump can do all those things “better”(worse).
We might not have lost the House and Senate though, in addition to other smaller local races. Stop trying to absolve them.
Feel free to do the math yourself then. But I don’t mind absolving them. They didn’t vote for Trump, and they exist in a terrible two party system that makes them choose between fascists. They literally did not cause this. So shut the fuck up. I don’t want to hear criticism of third party voters from anyone who hasn’t given 10x that criticism of everyone else on your list.
Firstly, you assume I don’t criticize others when my original post straight up does. That is a very false assumption. Secondly, you are only absolving them because you are in a position of privilege to do so. Until you’ve also had to uproot your life, tell your loved ones goodbye, and flee your home because of an existential threat, you have absolutely ZERO right to police my voice on this. With all due respect, fuck off.
I will not be responding further
Ya again, I need 10x the smoke for Republicans and Democrat politicians. Not just a mention. People voting for a better candidate are not the issue. I’m glad you won’t be responding cause this level of stupidity is draining.
And you still haven’t backed up your claim that third party voters had a significant sway on the election.
I feel like takes like this come from people with no long term memory.
Christ. How ironic.
I spent about a minute trying to figure out whatever the fuck you’re talking about and it was a big waste of time
Christ. How pointless as usual.
Holy blame shifting, Batman!
Man you keep just making a variation on the same “fuck the leftists” line over and over again.
Are we talking about the same Democratic Party who put forward Kamala “I believe we should follow the law” Harris as their only candidate for president?
How you people manage to convince yourselves that a Democratic Party win would achieve anything at all for trans rights, is beyond belief!
The dems as a whole wouldn’t be moving back as quickly. If your in one of the groups you’d be better off being in a delicate but protected class rather than persecuted. Having obstruction to arms shipments would help Palestinians.
How you people manage to convince yourselves that a Democratic Party win would achieve anything at all for trans rights, is beyond belief!
So back to you, how’s not voting achieving anything? Its proven to be a strategic blunder. Tamkies that say otherwise aren’t serious people.
The dems as a whole wouldn’t be moving back as quickly. If your in one of the groups you’d be better off being in a delicate but protected class rather than persecuted. Having obstruction to arms shipments would help Palestinians.
But that’s not good enough (legitimately true) so we should let Nazis win (unacceptable and literal Nazi shit)!
So back to you, how’s not voting achieving anything? Its proven to be a strategic blunder. Tamkies that say otherwise aren’t serious people.
They’re convinced that it’s awoken the inner leftist soul of the people. “Mamdani would never have won if Harris had prevailed!” is an opinion espoused in this very thread.
Frustrating isn’t it.
Immensely. I find this whole argument tedious, but the alternative is to let people normalize this slop on here.
This isn’t complicated to anyone without brain damage.
Kamala: Prosecutor. Doctorate in law. No criminal record. Member of a party known for NOT targeting trans people and introducing bills to secure rights for them.
Trump: Felon. Rapist. Insurrectionist. Thief. Dumbfuck. Member of a party known for persecuting trans people.
That feeling when Democrats are turning on trans people. Pretending the Democrats will save us as a Fool’s errand. Pretending that trans people wouldn’t be on the chopping block if the Democrats had federal office is naive.
Some Democrats, reeling from Republican attacks tying their party to transgender rights issues, are privately furious at their leaders and explicitly warning they need a better strategy going into 2026.
Source: https://www.politico.com/news/2024/11/13/democrats-moderates-transgender-issues-strategy-00189123
Pretending that trans people wouldn’t be on the chopping block if the Democrats had federal office is naive.
Yes, as we all know, the Federal government the past 30 years has become more hostile to trans folk every time those damn dirty Dems have been in office!
Utterly delusional.
Yes we all know that trans rights got stronger under Joe Biden and his administration was able to enshrine strong trans protections… Oh wait.
Those Democrats have done so much to help pull us into a new enlightened age and definitely haven’t let Republican policies stand every single time they got back into office.
Holy fucking shit, do you not remember what things were like in the 90s and 2000s?
What am I saying? Asking an ML to understand recent history? I might as well ask a dog to play the fucking guitar.
… this is awkward.
Speaking of recent history can you remind me what party was in charge from 2000 to 2008? You know when those rights were increasing in society?
Its fun to point out when people use fallacies like the ones you used here. A genetic fallacy and an ad hominem. It’s the sign of a weak orator. One who is unable to actually support their arguments.
Speaking of recent history can you remind me what party was in charge from 2000 to 2008? You know when those rights were increasing in society?
Someone is playing apologia for the Bush Adminstration’s position on trans rights?
Holy fucking shit. MLs really are just conservative bootlicks.
Its fun to point out when people use fallacies like the ones you used here. A genetic fallacy and an ad hominem. It’s the sign of a weak orator. One who is unable to actually support their arguments.
Did you not say that trans rights in LGBT rights were awful in the 1990s?
Is the Bush Administration later than the 1990s?
Did you like not think about this? That is a very shallow interpretation bordering on irresponsible.
I’m sorry did I respond to you or did you respond to me? Who wants to debate who?
Did you not say that trans rights in LGBT rights were awful in the 1990s?
Me:
Holy fucking shit, do you not remember what things were like in the 90s and 2000s?
I understand that reading two whole words is a bit of a strain for you, but I promise that reading entire sentences will help your comprehension.
I’m sorry did I respond to you or did you respond to me? Who wants to debate who?
Do you… do you not realize who the OP is?
Fuck’s sake.
Yes we all know that trans rights got stronger under Joe Biden and his administration was able to enshrine strong trans protections… Oh wait.
Are they getting better with your abstinence?
Yep let’s keep voting in the people that promise to do something about it and then they do nothing about it like they’ve done for the last 20 plus years.
Congratulations you highlighted voter apathy. A very well known problem in the United States.
Care to explain how your strategy of harm reduction supposed to energize the Electoral it and get them out voting again when that strategy completely failed in 2024?
It’s almost like we should do something different than try to convince people to vote in the system that doesn’t work for them, that burns everybody out
Congratulations you highlighted voter apathy. A very well known problem in the United States.
I am aware, and tankies like you are stoking it and abandoning this key front in our [class] war.
Care to explain how your strategy of harm reduction supposed to energize the Electoral it and get them out voting again when that strategy completely failed in 2024?
Id like you to answer why watching removing the few political blocks we could put on ICE, abortion removal, and LGBT rights is a good move? I live in a place with a large Hispanic population. Please visit and tell the kids that you were to pure to hold your nose on election day and that them being afraid of showing up to an empty home one day is just how it needs to be.
Tankies just aren’t serious people and bad allies.
It’s almost like we should do something different
STILL WAITING FOR YOU TO PROPOSE SOMETHING VIABLE, CHAMP!!!
Yes we all know that trans rights got stronger under Joe Biden and his administration was able to enshrine strong trans protections… Oh wait.
“WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH. They didn’t fix everything, including things that weren’t being threatened while they were in power. I’m going to use my energy to try to get people to not vote or vote 3rd party so we can ensure even longer Republican control of our nation and even more persecution against trans people. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!”
Oh? So what did they fix?
Go ahead and list it out. I will wait.
Pretending the Democrats will save us as a Fool’s errand. Pretending that trans people wouldn’t be on the chopping block if the Democrats had federal office is naive.
I think both of those sentences are true. But the question for me when choosing isn’t whether or not the Democrats would be acceptably tolerant and inclusive. It is whether their opponents would be WAY fucking worse or not. And hell fucking yes they would be and are!
It comes down to the fact that our flawed voting system causes the dichotomy, but that flawed voting system is next to impossible to change. I could see a legit revolution happening before that ever does. I just made a big comment explaining it on another meme post if you want to check my history.
I stand by my statement.
Yes the flawed voting system is a major problem which is why we should put no effort into maintaining it and should put all of our effort into maintaining local organizations to make up for the fact that our government wants to cut all social spending.
The fascists are here. They aren’t knocking down the door. They’re in the White House. And the strategy of voting the Democrats to prevent the fascist from Gaining power has failed.
The Democrats have learned no lessons and it’s now up to the people to create a whole new system of power but if people are looking for something to do in the moment one should be focused on their local organizations that actually do something for their community instead of the DNC and other electoral political organizations that do nothing but waste people time on trying to stall the death of a Dying System that is already delivered us into the hands of fascists.
Oh and if you’re voting for the Democrats because they’re supposed to save the minorities that’s on the chopping block too. They’re ready to sacrifice everybody for power.
I can’t disagree with much there!
I just want to point out the sometimes-overlooked fact that we are also here (delivered to hands of fascists) because so god damn many Americans wanted it. Arguably the voting system worked great because most of the voters wanted the guy who promised a racist dictatorship.
That doesn’t necessarily change how we respond to the situation now (I am local focused for sure), and yeah maybe there was election rigging and cheating so it shouldn’t have gone this way… but damn do we have a culture problem moreso than a political system problem.
Granted a lot of the culture problem is the direct result of politics, and all the propaganda and media influence that people don’t even realize is attracting their political beliefs. Stuff us complicated for sure.
The dems as a whole wouldn’t be moving back as quickly. If your in one of the groups you’d be better off being in a delicate but protected class rather than persecuted. Having obstruction to arms shipments would help Palestinians.
The fascists are here. They aren’t knocking down the door. They’re in the White House. And the strategy of voting the Democrats to prevent the fascist from Gaining power has failed.
So back to you, how’s not voting achieving anything? Its proven to be a strategic blunder. Tamkies that say otherwise aren’t serious people.
Non voting has been the biggest block for several election cycles now.
Its not blue no matter who. Its blue when harm reduction is one of the limited choices and working to expand the progressive wing where possible.
What an asinine statement.
People aren’t voting because they’re Marxist and they’re taking a principal position against electoralism. People aren’t voting because they know their vote doesn’t count.
People like me aren’t the problem. My goal is to get people energized and involved in local politics which is vastly more important than the stupid electoral politics that this community keeps pushing. The Democrats lead us here and allowed this to happen. But yeah let’s just keep giving them the keys to the kingdom because the other guys are worse
What’s the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result?
harm reduction doesn’t work if it did Trump wouldn’t be in office.
harm reduction isn’t going to get people to vote people couldn’t be arsed to vote in 2020/2024. You think shouting about harm reduction is going to get those people back in the voting booth?
The DNC have systematically shut down the progressive wing and we have less progressives in office now than we did in 2016.
Our institutions have abandoned us to the wolves and we need to build new ones. The faster y’all recognize that the faster that work can finish
The Democrats lead us here and allowed this to happen. But yeah let’s just keep giving them the keys to the kingdom because the other guys are worse
Its not blue no matter who. Its blue when harm reduction is one of the limited choices and working to expand the progressive wing where possible.
People aren’t voting because they know their vote doesn’t count.
No show has been the biggest block of voters pretty much every election for decades now. Their votes don’t count because they are not voting for them to be counted.
harm reduction doesn’t work if it did Trump wouldn’t be in office.
harm reduction isn’t going to get people to vote people couldn’t be arsed to vote in 2020/2024. You think shouting about harm reduction is going to get those people back in the voting booth?
Marginalized communities were 100% under dem control. Not in ideal conditions, but not being hunted.
In none of my comments I have said that voting is the only front. I am saying it is one of many and a very important one. Tankies like yourself are discouraging people from showing up and giving even more control to the far right. It makes you some very bad allies. Hispanics would not be hunted for sport. Abortion rights not rolled back as quickly. Palestine might have a better chance if we could block arms shipments fueling their destruction.
It’s always about harm reduction. Was about harm reduction in 2016, it was about harm reduction in 2020, it was about harm reduction in 2024.
No one cares. Liberal activists have been banging the drum about harm reduction for the better part of 20 years.
You think continuing to go on about harm reduction is going to get the apathetic electorate to vote?
Yeah you’re damn right there are people out here encouraging people to not waste their time with electoralism. There are much better places we should be spending our energy where it actually matters.
As far as the safety of minority groups under Democrat leadership I’d say it’s a wash given that state leadership is far far more important than Federal leadership.
The Democrats will not save us nor will they deliver us from fascism
It’s always about harm reduction. Was about harm reduction in 2016, it was about harm reduction in 2020, it was about harm reduction in 2024.
Did you read where I wrote this:
Its not blue no matter who. Its blue when harm reduction is one of the limited choices and working to expand the progressive wing where possible.
Can’t move past harm reduction if you are not growing the progressive wing where possible. Either in the dem party or spinning of a serious 3rd party. Libertarian, as gross as they are, have made their ideas main stream in the Rs. Again tankies discouraging voting is abandoning a key front in the [class] war and rolling over for fascists.
Tankies just aren’t serious people. Ive never had a tankie like yourself propose and different actionable plan. If they were serious they would have one to talk about rather than just shitting on what we do have.
You think continuing to go on about harm reduction is going to get the apathetic electorate to vote?
Not voting has cost us LGBT, womens, and other rights. So… yeah they have a lot at stake. This is a [class] war and in all war you don’t have a say about when it stops.
Let me ask you a simple question.
Do you believe a 3rd party will be viable on a national level by 2028?
I don’t need you to type a novel in response. Just a basic yes or no.
Let me ask you a simple question.
What are you going to do to help the afflicted minorities to make to 2028?
So you’re too unintelligent to answer a simple question about your own beliefs?
Color me unsurprised based on ALL your other comments.
You’re just some loser trying to diminish the best chances we have at stopping this madness in 2026 and 2028. You cry about trans rights but actively work against the best VIABLE path forward for them in the foreseeable future.
You are part of the problem and not worth anyone’s time or effort. You’re trash.
You’re speaking to a child that doesn’t understand harm reduction. They want what they want, now, or they flip the table over. Or rather, talk about flipping the table over, because this guy isn’t leading any concerted effort to change things. He’s just complaining.
He will 100% not vote or vote 3rd party next time around, being part of the problem, not the solution.
Reforming the Democratic party by primarying bad actors and sending a message to establishment Dems is the answer, not crying and crossing your fingers that a 3rd party wins (they won’t) or a revolution happens. Reform has happened multiple times in American history and conservatives literally just did it to their party over the last 2 decades.
Reforming the Democratic party by primarying bad actors and sending a message to establishment Dems is the answer, not crying and crossing your fingers that a 3rd party wins (they won’t) or a revolution happens. Reform has happened multiple times in American history and conservatives literally just did it to their party over the last 2 decades.
I think you are missing a not in primaring bad actors. I agree that we cannot have a progressive movement if we don’t try and grow it.
and it’s now up to the people to create a whole new system of power
I think it’s cute that you believe it’s easier to “create a whole new system of power” than it is to reform a political party by primarying bad actors that don’t do what their constituents want, which has literally been done multiple times in American history and was just done to the Republican party by conservative voters over the last 2 decades.
Pick up a history book.
Or start a revolution yourself. I’m sure people will follow you…
Never said its easy. Just said that we need to start.
I have picked up a history book. I have watched people with small groups make massive changes and they didn’t rely on electoralism as the first front or an important front in their battle for liberty. This strategy is only pushed by privileged liberals that think they can wait out each administration to just vote the better candidate in while the minorities suffer due to lack of local organization.
Those of us on the ground know better which is why were are helping our local communities now.
Pretending that trans people wouldn’t be on the chopping block if the Democrats had federal office is naive.
They literally introduce bills to provide rights to trans people.
Gee I wonder why they had to do that in the Trump Administration and not in the Biden Administration when they had the ability to codify these things?
Such a mystery 🤔
Gee I wonder why they had to do that in the Trump Administration
Because the Trump administration is threatening trans rights and the Biden administration wasn’t.
Are you ignorant enough to think an administration is going to categorically plug every hole in our system in the short periods that they’re in power? Especially if those holes aren’t being taken advantage of during the time they are in power?
Also, if you actually learned how to read you would have noticed on the link I provided that the bill was introduced during Biden’s presidency after Republicans regained control of the House and started trying to pass anti-trans bills so Democrats responded by introducing this Trans Bill of Rights, which the Republican controlled House rejected.
Learn to read.
Are you ignorant enough to think an administration is going to categorically plug every hole in our system in the short periods that they’re in power? Especially if those holes aren’t being taken advantage of during the time they are in power?
Wow that would be hilarious If the Trump administration wasn’t taking advantage of every hole
So are the democrats always this incompetent or did they save it for when we really needed their protection?
Also one person of the extreme progressive party doesn’t not make a party especially when that person is vastly in the minority and the majority of dems are pushing against trans rights as noted by my article that was published months after that amendment was introduced.
