You say “apple” to me and I’m #1, glossy skin, insides, all that
And how in the hell does one navigate life, or enjoy a book, if they’re not a #1?! Reading a book is like watching a movie. I subconsciously assign actor’s faces to characters and watch as the book rolls on.
Yet #5’s are not handicapped in the slightest. They’re so “normal” that mankind is just now figuring out we’re far apart on this thing. Fucking weird.
EDIT: Showed this to my wife and she was somewhat mystified as to what I was asking. Pretty sure she’s a 5. I get frustrated as hell when I ask her to describe a thing and she’s clueless. “Did the radiator hose pop off, or is it torn and cracked?” “I don’t know!”
EDIT2: The first Star Wars book after the movie came out was Splinter in the Mind’s Eye. I feel like I got that title. What’s it mean to you?
Isn’t 5 is called Aphantasia ? To be unable to visualize something in the mind?
Yep! Craziest thing is that we just started looking into this thing in the past 10-20 years. Proof to me that it’s no handicap, but if you took my mind’s eye away I’d feel crippled.
It has its benefits. You can talk absolute depravity, like Trump farting so much shit into Ivankas mouth that liquid diarrhea is overflowing from the side of her mouth with chunks of yesterday’s pasta bolognese dangling off her chin, and get no mental image of that filth. But you can enjoy that imagery.
I’m probably 1 but I can tune stuff out.
Stuff like “you are now manually breathing” doesn’t really bother me.
I’ve also got a lot of intrusive thoughts so maybe I’m just practiced at shutting it down.
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On the upside our kids aren’t going to be traumatised by pictures of apples.
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My sister has #5 and I can ask her to make a response if you want OP.
Last we talked about it she said if she tried really hard she can see come colors and shapes but that’s about it.
The best conversation about it we ever had went something like this (keep in mind were both autistic and when together dont always communicate like neurotypical people do):
*while driving*
her: “get in that turn lane to the right”
*i do the 👆hand tricks and turn*her: “when I don’t want to do that I always think in my head ‘never eat soggy waffles’ and remember that east is left and right is west”
me: “that’s not even correct, but like WHY would you do that??”
her: “to remember how to turn”
me: “why wouldn’t you just do the hand things?”
me: “like imagine them in your head and-”her: “MUST BE NICE HUH?”
*we both explode in laughter*she didn’t even mean to make a joke about it, that’s just genuinely the way she remembers lefts and rights
also this meme has become a common occurrence whenever the topic is brought up
Also a pretty interesting thing I remembered while writing this is a clip on TV (can’t remember what show it was) where they asked a room of people to draw a bicycle then they made it IRL by welding it and told them to ride it a block or two and back. Only 1 of ~15 did it correctly, one girl got it exactly but forgot the peddles. Pretty interesting how they could all imagine a bike but couldn’t draw it correctly
The left/right story might be a different thing. Was in my 40s until I could instinctively know left from right. Before that I would snap my left fingers, or mime it, because I’m sinister and can’t snap my right.
Only way I got better was saying to myself, “This is bullshit and you’re all growed up. Work on this thing.” Somehow I got better, can’t say how.
I have serious issues with modelling the world in 3D, but I’m a solid 1 on the aphantasia scale. Weird.
The left/right story might be a different thing.
very well could be, our genetics are a concoction of adhd, autism, anxiety, depression, etc etc
i used to be able to know without doing the L R hands in highschool, but I guess that skill faded over time 🤷♀️
personally it’s not big enough of an issue for me to do anything about bc taking a wrong turn is way more embarrassing than doing a L R hand.I have serious issues with modelling the world in 3D, but I’m a solid 1 on the aphantasia scale. Weird.
that’s interesting, my sister has done some stuff with a CAD program for 3d printing and it wasn’t an issue for her. What specifically do you have trouble with?just realized you were probably talking about a mental map rather than a 3d modeling program 😂, my sister has the same issue and hates driving because of it
My brain is like a vector database, it stores the “feelings” of information, not the actual information - if that makes sense?
I can make lightning fast connections in my head when something happens, like when something breaks in production, I see the symptoms and the vectors just connect from effect to the cause.
Can I explain to others why and how I know where the problem is? Nope. …Or yes, but it’ll take a long time for me to follow the feeling-vectors and put them into words I can actually communicate to other people.
For actual people and characters in books I also retain the shape and …something about them, but I couldn’t explain how most people in my life look like to a sketch artist.
When I read a book, I kinda retain the “feeling” of the characters and maybe one or two visual traits. I can read thousands of pages of a character’s adventures and I can maybe tell you their general body type and clothing - if they have an “uniform” they tend to wear.
I’ve read all 5 books (over 5000 pages) of The Stormlight Archive and I couldn’t tell you what Kaladin (the main character) looks like. I have no visual recollection of his hair colour, eye colour, skin tone or body type.
It always baffled me when a movie adaptation of a book came out and people were really upset that the characters looked wrong. And I was just “… you remember what the people in books look like??”. It turns out they do.
Oh, and DEFINITELY no voice in my head. I’d get myself committed if I had someone talking to me in my brain.
Holy cow. This is possibly the best description of how I usually think I’ve ever encountered. It was actually a bit unnerving to read. Though I’ve always conceptualized it as “shapes” and “holes” rather than vectors.
The ability to near-instantly make connections between symptoms and cause for any given issue in a system I’m familiar with especially resonated. The best explanation I could give someone without stepping back and basically re-solving the whole thing from a standing start would be “the shapes fit together”.
It feels like I’m being asked how I knew a puzzle piece fit in a space, and for some reason “I looked at it and could see that it fit” is not a sufficient explanation. No, I didn’t need to investigate other possible pieces. They are obviously different shapes. The one that you’re asking about doesn’t even belong to the same puzzle.
Similarly I am also utterly incapable of describing what a person looks like in any detail. I have a “mind’s eye” and can conjure up images of them in my head, but for whatever reason I just completely lack the ability to express what I see in words outside of very high level details. They have brown hair, they’re tall, what do you mean “what shape is their face?” Sara’s face is the shape of Sara’s face. It couldn’t be any other shape.
I do have an internal monologue or voice though, but it’s not constant. It usually only comes up when I’m dealing with other people and need to try to reason through what someone else is doing.
For those who are a 4 or 5 on this diagram: What are your dreams like?
I’m a 5. Dreams are fine. As realistic as I want them to be.
They can be amazing or terrible. Fly, go through days in dreams, sex, get chased by a monster. Lucid dreams. I also have sleep paralysis, so it can get pretty fucked up. It’s like having another life. Best part is I should be too old to have nocturnal emissions. Worst part is you can be so scared you wake yourself up (and your partner) by screaming. Or, in a few instances, choking or hitting your partner in your sleep.
But you see things vividly in your dreams?
Like, I’m a 1 on this scale. I remember and imagine very visually. I can picture an apple sitting on a plate on a table and it looks real. In fact, my mind imagined it being slid onto the table, and the apple rocked on the plate as it slid to a stop. My imagination has a physics engine.
I also dream vividly, the experience feels very lifelike. The few lucid dreams I had tended to fade quickly when I realized I was dreaming. I’d love to be able to cause, and then maintain, that state.
I’m not as puzzled about the concept of aphantasia (or the opposite) as much as the fact that people here, and two I know IRL, always self report as either 1s or 5s, with a handful of exceptions (ATTOW).
Is there a selection bias, where anyone in-between doesn’t relate to either extreme enough to comment, or do said extremes conflate the ability to “picture” fine details with the ability to remember them in the first place?
I’m noticing that in this comment section, too. I hadn’t noticed before, but most people do seem to be one extreme or the other. I imagine it’s because at either end they feel like they have something unique to offer the conversation, but those in the middle probably feel as if they are normal and it won’t be interesting to contribute, maybe?
Ooc, what would you label yourself? I posted mine if you want to see my experience as someone who jumps around the spectrum a bit
Without rigorously researching the phenomenon, I’d put myself in the 2, edging towards 3 - I can visualize things with however many details I can see with my own eyes if I focus a little, but instinctually I only see vague shapes that serve their purpose in whatever scenario I’m thinking of.
I can rotate objects and remember the back-face details;
I can picture a moment from a story I was reading, where a bipedal nocturnal lizard in a cramped spaceship violently recoils from having a flashlight pointed at its eyes;
I cannot quantify the spacing between its eyes compared to the height between those and the tip of the nose as seen by a front-facing isometric projection, even if it’s all a fiction and I could just make things up.Basically my mind is running Unreal Engine 5 with medium settings, low LOD and AI generated textures - which would also explains a lot of other things now that I think about it.
hey thats also how I work :D
Well, if it makes anyone feel better, I’m somewhere around 2 or 3. But that’s really nothing to write about.
I think I’m like a 3 or 4.
I remember some years back there was a “test” going around the internet where you were supposed to picture an apple moving off a table in your head, and then it would ask you “ok what did the person pushing the apple look like, what color were their clothes, etc.” and I thought “oh shit do I have aphantasia?”
Later I realized that couldn’t be entirely true since I do picture characters in books, although I always picture them as an actor or another character from a comic/show/movie, never as an original face.
Your mind has an active visual cortex. Other folks think more using their audio cortex. Some more with somatic awareness (feeling tone).
Mathameticians can visualize math.
Everyone is wired a bit different.
I’m a two or a four on the scale, depending on how much weed I consume. As heavy weed use dulls the minds eye. Though irregular use can enhance it.
And after years working in kitchens, I can think in smells. I.e.mix spices in my mind and smell them in my head before adding to a dish.
Some of us can even think without any senses.
I do have a hard time thinking without “listening” my own voice
Yeah I think everybody actually does, but the sense consciousnesses are a lot less subtle than stuff like intentions.
And even that last part can be let go of. What is beyond that is beyond conceptualization, but it’s not nothing. Nor is it something. As both are concepts.
Some people also don’t have an internal monologue. I’m probably a 3 or 4, it takes significant effort to see something in my head. But my thoughts a words and they definitely have a voice.
I assume there is a scale for how well we can imagine every sense.
I mean I guess that’s lucky in some ways my thoughts never stop
Mine don’t stop either, but it’s just constant words. Are your thoughts mostly images?
Words mostly but I can visualize accurately
3 or 4
I can “picture” with images but it’s not top accuracy. It’s mostly imagining a thing existing
Same here. Had plenty of argument with teachers when I said I couldn’t really visualize things… I just had to “close my eyes and try harder”. Glad this kind of information is more out there now.
Some people really are out there living their lives with aphantasia. I can’t imagine that.
I am definitely a number 1, I couldn’t imagine not being able to imagine. I can go beyond one. I can visualize the apple and taste it as I begin to eat said apple.
Discover the trick as a kid, when denied food from my abusive mom boyfriend. He made me stand in a corner while they ate dinner. I used this skill to bring a cheeseburger into existence and then began to eat it. Even felt full afterwards. Of course that sensation only lasted couple hours, but was still interesting trait to discover.
being a 1 with ADHD is crazy, like I can be in the middle of a class and zone out and start visualising myself walking around the campus in incredible detail, or FPV droning inside a friend’s house, or really anything I can think of, although that said it takes a fair bit of effort to keep it going beyond a certain amount of time.
Dude it’s a constant battle to not get lost in thoughts. The real world is boring af 90% of the time. I’ve sat for hours quietly immersed in the imaginings. It’s also fantastic for extrapolating and working through ideas though. Sights, sounds, tactile sensations, movement, it isn’t vivid like reality but it has such depth.
And don’t get me started on the times you imagine yourself doing a task and then completely believing you actually did it until someone gets mad at you for it, it’s funny but also kinda ass
Haha 😅
I’m somewhere between 3 and 4 I think. If I try to imagine a detail, I can’t see the rest of the thing. If I want to see the whole thing, it’s all very vague and shadowy.
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Are you able to see your memories more like dreams or are your memories more like a vibe?
Memories are more like the feelings and senses associated with the memory, alongside a narration of what happened. Like if I had a fight and had to recount it to police, I’d think of how I moved, where I was hit, what kinds of sounds and smells there were, etc. alongside a sort of fight announcer narrating the fight like a boxing match.
Wait, clarify for me.
If you are a 5 and cannot visualize at all while awake, how do you know your dreams were vivid? Can you imagine the dreams once awake and picture them? Otherwise how can you know how vivid they were?
Maybe my question is dumb haha, i just cannot grasp not being able to use ones mind to imagine.
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Interesting, this is my own theory so take it with a grain of salt. But I think everyone has wild confusion with the subject of the minds eye. We are all just recalling things, it’s the same thing.
I believe the difference between 1-5 is much smaller than online discussing would make us think.
I can “see the apple” and I can “feel it crunch” but not actually. I’m just recalling the “idea” of those sensations.
If I stare off in my environment, I can place the apple on a table, I can “pick it up” but there is no apple. I’m simply recalling what it feels like to take that action, or what I would think based on previous experiences it would feel like.
I don’t think anyone is able to legitimately hallucinate things into their reality (within reason of course haha, mental conditions and such) and I always leave these discussions feeling like people who align with 5 think 1’s can legitimately create objects in their reality.
But I can only experience my mind, so we will probably never have a solid answer to this.
I would also be very interested to know if people who align with 5 are able to “train” themselves up the scale.
Do you ever experience hallucinations? Like see people or animals in the corner of your eye that turn out to be just shadows or a coat. I’m a 1 and I sometimes experience vivid hallucinations when I’m really tired or have just woken up. Like I have a recurring hallucination that I occasionally get. Sometimes when I wake up I see a spider hanging above my head. Then I jump out of bed and notice that nothing is there.
How many Au/ADHD can do this vs non-neurospicy? Just curious of there’s a difference or likeliness one way or another.
I can see and manipulate objects in my head. I can make up voices or objects in my head and “hear” them. I can remember a smell, but I couldn’t make one up - iow I could slice an imaginary apple and imagine the smell. I can feel an object’s texture without touching it.
I can’t imagine not having these things in my head.
Have taught Au/ADHD kids who range from one to five. I’m an ADHD one, but one of my favorite students is a total ADHD five.
Seems like it’s all over the place.
Adhd “levels”? A quick look around gets anywhere between three and seven levels of adhd depending on the website. Got a reference by a reputable org that lists what levels mean?
I assumed it was just the numbers on the image, not the level of ADHD. As in “a person with ADHD who matches with number 5 on the imagination scale in the OP”.
Ah, gotcha. Thanks for the clarification.
That is what I meant.
I have severe 5 aphantasia. It was such a relief when a name was put to it.
Hahaha same! I started asking every person I know about it because I was so curious. Like, that can’t be real, you can’t see stuff. But everyone I know seems to have some level of actual visualization except me. And I am an okay artist, just need references and a lot of trial & error when drawing.
