republicans/regressives (read nazis) actually get in line and vote for the R next to any name that they’ve heard in the last week (if not just because it has an R), which means that they actually get shit done (making things worse, but they all get behind it is my point).
On the other hand, democrats/leftists/progressives all sit here and fight one another because of reasons, some good, and some just a little silly in the grand scheme of things. This group doesn’t know how to effectively work together to slowly and surely get to the same end goal.
The differences here are why regressives are able to rat fuck an entire nation, collectively, because they don’t bicker with each other, their allies, about the smaller details.
The democrats/leftists/progressives are too busy trying to fight hundreds of different problems/battles that would all be solved (eventually, mind you, not right away like we wish it would be) by banding together and keeping the movement momentum going AFTER winning the election.
For an example, gaza and trans rights issues. Both VERY valid issues, and they should be discussed. What happened was those same groups focused way too much on the smaller details instead of the big picture. What SHOULD have happened was we voice our concerns on the issues, vote for the person (at this time, Harris) who had the highest chance of those issues being solved, and then keeping the fire going by continuing to press these concerns to THAT administration.
Look at it this way, even though it is too late: if Kamala had won, you’d be able to sit there and protest any actions that weren’t being made towards your/your groups issues, and if we could all get on the same god damned page, you would have more allies who are more at ease with the current admin who could protest with you, because things aren’t dire enough for them to focus on them and theirs (read fuck you, got mine). Under the orange buffoon, you can now get deported for protesting anything, let alone trans rights and gaza genocide. So, those allies you could’ve had are now being deported, killed, or arrested, and that makes others scared to protest with you.
TL;DR: Allowing the nazis to win because democrats/leftists/progressives can’t see the bigger picture, and choose to focus on their own issues only (or at the very least, make it their highest priority when we should know that’s not how it works, unfortunately) is the reason we have the orange shitler in office right now. This group is trying to fight 100 different battles, while regressives lock step and take away all the good we had achieved, instead of banding together and just doing the literal bare minimum (vote in the “neo-lib”). Full stop.
so true, I don’t enjoy voting blue. I hate the libs and am certainly not a lib, but I think harm reduction is important and I think it’s certainly true that protesting under the orange regime is. alot more life threatening for someone like me than under Kamala or Biden. That’s not to say that they will actually listen or take action but I’m more confident they won’t deploy the national guard and Marines to my city and I think that’s worth voting for
The establishment Dems are only “allies” on some issues, and cannot be counted on for keeping their stances on those issues or actually doing much about them at all. For the most part, both parties are captured by and depend on corporations and the wealthy. Most politicians have no principles, because the profession attracts and rewards the kind of people who don’t. Newsom is obviously being set up to be the next presidential candidate, and it already seems he’s beginning to throw trans people under the bus (and is actively hostile to the poor and homeless). I do agree that harm reduction should be practiced; it’s necessary, but not sufficient. Getting involved in progressive Democrat candidate campaigns, and voting in primaries is probably the best way forward electorally. It will likely take decades to right the ship though.
Thank you for referring to them as regressives. I’ve been trying to normalize that for years. They are not conservatives anymore, if they ever were. They want to take our society backward.
You’re right about regressives working together to achieve their end goal. But it’s because they’re in a cult. They’re brainwashed. The left is not. Certainly not even remotely to the same degree. So we argue amongst ourselves. And in a way that’s a strength. Cultist groupthink usually doesn’t lead to good places. But yeah, if the left doesn’t learn to groupthink on the macro issues, then we’re just going to keep losing to fanatics.
The people that chose not to vote or flush their vote down the drain with a 3rd party are fools who couldn’t see the big picture and what was really at stake. And now we’re paying for their foolishness. Hopefully in the future they can learn from their mistake, but I’m not holding my breath. They seem to care more about their perceived moral superiority than the wellbeing of our nation and its citizens.
I think leftists spoiling their ballot or 3rd party would be better than just not showing up. It gives solid statistics about how the big tent party needs to pivot. Libertarians :throw up emoji: are a good example of this working and shifting the overton window in their favor.
I’m staunchly in the camp of “If we are not moving forward in our country, we are doing something wrong” progressives, and still voted for Kamala because she was the only option at the MOMENT for people like me who can see the bigger picture and that small victories can lead to major victories.
They have been regressives since reagan at the least!
I’m okay with cult think as long as it is a cult that is dedicated to giving poor people food and healthcare and a living wage! Sign me the fuck up!
I don’t think the tankies are wrong to fee grossed out, but that is just the nature of [class] war. Perhaps they should realize that they are indeed fighting in one and stop abandoning strategic parts of it (like showing up to elections local, state, and federal)
@dastanktal@lemmy.ml This is a big part of what I am saying. Its find that you have criticisms with the approach, but you never mention an alternative; which is why I personally say that tankies are not serious people. Not voting has weakened our position greatly. Not voting means we have not grown the progressive wing in the DNC or even spun out a 3rd party. And I do mean this on local, state, and federal levels.
Its rather privileged of you to wait for a perfect candidate when you are not cold, hungry, and under siege. But [class] war is uncomfortable and your unwillingness to fight makes you a bad ally. I have said it before. Elections are just one front in the battle and abandoning it has been a strategic blunder.
Its fine to critic, but if you don’t have an alternative or proposed amendment then you are just not serious about materially achieving goals.
No I completely disagree and don’t think that electoralism would do anything other than delay the inevitable rise to Fascism in the United States.
Stop pointing out this line of logic it’s not convincing.
The Democrats had 8 years under Obama to do literally anything to affect the status quo and failed to do so with massive push from the progressive crowd. Then we try it again with Bernie in 2016 where the Democrats made it very very clear he was not welcome.
Then we try it again in 2020 where Joe Biden promptly ignored the majority will of most voters.
It is not the job of the voters to Rally around a party that can’t figure itself out, it is the job of the party to energize those voters into acting the way they need to.
This is something that Communists recognize about their own party, why is this so hard for liberals to understand it.
You were giving yourself a handicap and saying there’s nothing you can do about it. Frankly that’s bullshit and there’s plenty to do other than sit around and waste your time in political organizations that solely focus on electoralism that aren’t going to do a damn thing to make our lives better or save us from fascism.
The Democrats had 8 years under Obama to do literally anything to affect the status quo and failed to do so with massive push from the progressive crowd. Then we try it again with Bernie in 2016 where the Democrats made it very very clear he was not welcome.
And the somewhat balnaced nature of the house/senete/SC made it more difficult for trump to act in 2016. Hence my point that it does matter. Cannot build your community if you don’t have some say in these things. And you won’t because you dont vote.
It was an extremely common problem in the Obama Administration for them to embrace civility politics and back down to people like McConnell who single-handedly fucked the American people. Obama and the Democrats allowed that to happen.
Yes Trump was slowed down in 2016 by the Supreme Court but you know who could have used the four years to jump in and really hit the ground running the way Trump did in 2024? Biden in 2020 where he could have done something to actually slow Trump down and utilize some of the broad Powers the Supreme Court gave the office of president. He’s being somewhat slow down by this Supreme Court but this time he’s had four years to properly prep. Something the democrats should have done.
Oh and before you go well they wouldn’t let Biden use those Powers that’s also kind of the point. If you put that shit on the court record you’re then making the Supreme Court quite literally spell out that it’s not okay for the Democrats to do but it’s okay for the Republicans to do.
Once again you have no idea how I voted and the way I’m talking I could have easily have voted for PSL or the green party. If you want to know just ask.
Once again you have no idea how I voted and the way I’m talking I could have easily have voted for PSL or the green party. If you want to know just ask.
And going 3rd party would still be better than not voting.
Becuase it brings hard numbers about what the big tent could have done to win some seats. Libertarians have had good success in showing that if their 1% had been listened to the Rs could have picked up more seats. And the Rs have listened. They have shifted policy closer to what they want to see way more than we have to what we need.
Great then we are in agreement in this case. If people want to vote for third parties fine if people want to vote for the Democrats fine I don’t have a problem with that. My only issue is spending a lot of time harping on electoralism as the force that will save the United States. You’re right I would much rather people vote third party because it does do exactly what you want and shows the Democrats the type of policies we want but I’m pretty sure they’re already aware of the type of policies we want they just don’t want to give them to us judging by their reaction in New York.
The problem, in my mind:
republicans/regressives (read nazis) actually get in line and vote for the R next to any name that they’ve heard in the last week (if not just because it has an R), which means that they actually get shit done (making things worse, but they all get behind it is my point).
On the other hand, democrats/leftists/progressives all sit here and fight one another because of reasons, some good, and some just a little silly in the grand scheme of things. This group doesn’t know how to effectively work together to slowly and surely get to the same end goal.
The differences here are why regressives are able to rat fuck an entire nation, collectively, because they don’t bicker with each other, their allies, about the smaller details.
The democrats/leftists/progressives are too busy trying to fight hundreds of different problems/battles that would all be solved (eventually, mind you, not right away like we wish it would be) by banding together and keeping the movement momentum going AFTER winning the election.
For an example, gaza and trans rights issues. Both VERY valid issues, and they should be discussed. What happened was those same groups focused way too much on the smaller details instead of the big picture. What SHOULD have happened was we voice our concerns on the issues, vote for the person (at this time, Harris) who had the highest chance of those issues being solved, and then keeping the fire going by continuing to press these concerns to THAT administration.
Look at it this way, even though it is too late: if Kamala had won, you’d be able to sit there and protest any actions that weren’t being made towards your/your groups issues, and if we could all get on the same god damned page, you would have more allies who are more at ease with the current admin who could protest with you, because things aren’t dire enough for them to focus on them and theirs (read fuck you, got mine). Under the orange buffoon, you can now get deported for protesting anything, let alone trans rights and gaza genocide. So, those allies you could’ve had are now being deported, killed, or arrested, and that makes others scared to protest with you.
TL;DR: Allowing the nazis to win because democrats/leftists/progressives can’t see the bigger picture, and choose to focus on their own issues only (or at the very least, make it their highest priority when we should know that’s not how it works, unfortunately) is the reason we have the orange shitler in office right now. This group is trying to fight 100 different battles, while regressives lock step and take away all the good we had achieved, instead of banding together and just doing the literal bare minimum (vote in the “neo-lib”). Full stop.
@PugJesus@lemmy.world is right, whether you like it or not.
so true, I don’t enjoy voting blue. I hate the libs and am certainly not a lib, but I think harm reduction is important and I think it’s certainly true that protesting under the orange regime is. alot more life threatening for someone like me than under Kamala or Biden. That’s not to say that they will actually listen or take action but I’m more confident they won’t deploy the national guard and Marines to my city and I think that’s worth voting for
The establishment Dems are only “allies” on some issues, and cannot be counted on for keeping their stances on those issues or actually doing much about them at all. For the most part, both parties are captured by and depend on corporations and the wealthy. Most politicians have no principles, because the profession attracts and rewards the kind of people who don’t. Newsom is obviously being set up to be the next presidential candidate, and it already seems he’s beginning to throw trans people under the bus (and is actively hostile to the poor and homeless). I do agree that harm reduction should be practiced; it’s necessary, but not sufficient. Getting involved in progressive Democrat candidate campaigns, and voting in primaries is probably the best way forward electorally. It will likely take decades to right the ship though.
Thank you for referring to them as regressives. I’ve been trying to normalize that for years. They are not conservatives anymore, if they ever were. They want to take our society backward.
You’re right about regressives working together to achieve their end goal. But it’s because they’re in a cult. They’re brainwashed. The left is not. Certainly not even remotely to the same degree. So we argue amongst ourselves. And in a way that’s a strength. Cultist groupthink usually doesn’t lead to good places. But yeah, if the left doesn’t learn to groupthink on the macro issues, then we’re just going to keep losing to fanatics.
The people that chose not to vote or flush their vote down the drain with a 3rd party are fools who couldn’t see the big picture and what was really at stake. And now we’re paying for their foolishness. Hopefully in the future they can learn from their mistake, but I’m not holding my breath. They seem to care more about their perceived moral superiority than the wellbeing of our nation and its citizens.
I think leftists spoiling their ballot or 3rd party would be better than just not showing up. It gives solid statistics about how the big tent party needs to pivot. Libertarians :throw up emoji: are a good example of this working and shifting the overton window in their favor.
I’m staunchly in the camp of “If we are not moving forward in our country, we are doing something wrong” progressives, and still voted for Kamala because she was the only option at the MOMENT for people like me who can see the bigger picture and that small victories can lead to major victories.
They have been regressives since reagan at the least!
I’m okay with cult think as long as it is a cult that is dedicated to giving poor people food and healthcare and a living wage! Sign me the fuck up!
I don’t think the tankies are wrong to fee grossed out, but that is just the nature of [class] war. Perhaps they should realize that they are indeed fighting in one and stop abandoning strategic parts of it (like showing up to elections local, state, and federal)
@dastanktal@lemmy.ml This is a big part of what I am saying. Its find that you have criticisms with the approach, but you never mention an alternative; which is why I personally say that tankies are not serious people. Not voting has weakened our position greatly. Not voting means we have not grown the progressive wing in the DNC or even spun out a 3rd party. And I do mean this on local, state, and federal levels.
Its rather privileged of you to wait for a perfect candidate when you are not cold, hungry, and under siege. But [class] war is uncomfortable and your unwillingness to fight makes you a bad ally. I have said it before. Elections are just one front in the battle and abandoning it has been a strategic blunder.
Its fine to critic, but if you don’t have an alternative or proposed amendment then you are just not serious about materially achieving goals.
No I completely disagree and don’t think that electoralism would do anything other than delay the inevitable rise to Fascism in the United States.
Stop pointing out this line of logic it’s not convincing.
The Democrats had 8 years under Obama to do literally anything to affect the status quo and failed to do so with massive push from the progressive crowd. Then we try it again with Bernie in 2016 where the Democrats made it very very clear he was not welcome.
Then we try it again in 2020 where Joe Biden promptly ignored the majority will of most voters.
It is not the job of the voters to Rally around a party that can’t figure itself out, it is the job of the party to energize those voters into acting the way they need to.
This is something that Communists recognize about their own party, why is this so hard for liberals to understand it.
You were giving yourself a handicap and saying there’s nothing you can do about it. Frankly that’s bullshit and there’s plenty to do other than sit around and waste your time in political organizations that solely focus on electoralism that aren’t going to do a damn thing to make our lives better or save us from fascism.
And the somewhat balnaced nature of the house/senete/SC made it more difficult for trump to act in 2016. Hence my point that it does matter. Cannot build your community if you don’t have some say in these things. And you won’t because you dont vote.
It was an extremely common problem in the Obama Administration for them to embrace civility politics and back down to people like McConnell who single-handedly fucked the American people. Obama and the Democrats allowed that to happen.
Yes Trump was slowed down in 2016 by the Supreme Court but you know who could have used the four years to jump in and really hit the ground running the way Trump did in 2024? Biden in 2020 where he could have done something to actually slow Trump down and utilize some of the broad Powers the Supreme Court gave the office of president. He’s being somewhat slow down by this Supreme Court but this time he’s had four years to properly prep. Something the democrats should have done.
Oh and before you go well they wouldn’t let Biden use those Powers that’s also kind of the point. If you put that shit on the court record you’re then making the Supreme Court quite literally spell out that it’s not okay for the Democrats to do but it’s okay for the Republicans to do.
Once again you have no idea how I voted and the way I’m talking I could have easily have voted for PSL or the green party. If you want to know just ask.
And going 3rd party would still be better than not voting.
I’ll bite. Why is voting third party not any better than not voting?
Becuase it brings hard numbers about what the big tent could have done to win some seats. Libertarians have had good success in showing that if their 1% had been listened to the Rs could have picked up more seats. And the Rs have listened. They have shifted policy closer to what they want to see way more than we have to what we need.
We cannot know what that 38% wanted, but we do know more about that 1.1%. All we know is that there is a huge amount of possible allies that we are not getting involved one way or another. https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/1grcztm/voter_distribution_in_us_2024_presidential/
Great then we are in agreement in this case. If people want to vote for third parties fine if people want to vote for the Democrats fine I don’t have a problem with that. My only issue is spending a lot of time harping on electoralism as the force that will save the United States. You’re right I would much rather people vote third party because it does do exactly what you want and shows the Democrats the type of policies we want but I’m pretty sure they’re already aware of the type of policies we want they just don’t want to give them to us judging by their reaction in New York.