Vote Democrats if there is no progressive alternative. But always primary progressives in Democratic primaries.
This is the way, at least until we get rid of First Past the Post and other Ordinal voting systems.
Score, STAR, or Approval would all make primaries unnecessary, and also reward people for honestly voting their preferences. Which is sort of why there’s so much pushback against them.
Ending FPTP probably won’t necessarily solve the problem, as the German example shows.
Germany still uses Ordinal voting.
But yes, you also have about 20% of any given population that will openly choose the greatest evil.
But since the people benefitting from the current setup are the ones who’ll have to agree to change it and create the new system, there is absolutely no hope of ever peacefully ending the current status quo.
Except for the fact that pretty much every single progressive in Congress or on the ballot is in favor of some form of electoral reform.
But like you said, obviously nothing at all can be done, you know, besides voting for them.
And the people who actually control the party, decide what legislation gets a vote, and punish members who go against leadership will never allow it to happen, nor will they allow any of those progressive politicians to succeed them in their positions of power. Progressives are allowed on the party bcs they help keep the left flank in line, but they will never be allowed to hold any real power. That might threaten the Wall St donation gravy train, and the Third Way Foundation assholes who have a death grip on the power structures of the party will kill everyone on Earth before they give up that money.
Ah, defeatism. And basically telling other people to not even try.
I’d expect nothing less from .ml
Somehow not defeatism: We have to vote for the democrats, dont you dare think a better world is possible
Did you vote for progressives in the primaries? Actually I don’t care, the primaries are over, you fuck with the dick you’ve got, not the one you wish you had.
Lol, the people insisting that continuing to do the exact thing that got is here is the only viable way to change things accusing others of defeatism will never stop being hilarious.
Now do the one where you pretend Democrats have passed a bill that helped the working class more than it helped Wall St any time in the last forty fucking years, that’s always a riot!
Did you vote for progressives in the primaries?
No? you just want to feel superior by representing the very meme at the top of the page? Sure. Just shut the fuck up until after the election because the rest of us need to be the adult in the room. The simple reality is that thanks to First Past the Post you have exactly two choices.
Pro-fascism or anti-fascism. If you refuse to make a choice, well guess what, thanks to FPtP, you’ve chosen pro-fascism. That’s the hell we live in.
If you tell others to not vote, then you’ve again chosen the pro-fascism side and are a piece of shit on top of it.
Tankies won’t but the effort into voting but want to be perceived as serious to actually be marching in the streets.
They have some real criticism of the dem establishment, but no real perspective that they are surrendering office to fascism.
i get called a tankie all the time and i vote in every election from the municipal up.
the democrats are not a serious opposition party, many democrats in blue states are essentially just republicans who learned how to not openly say slurs in college (think people like seth moulton)
they squat on power and are not credible opponents to fascism, only to thier left do they actually put up a fight.
why would they? they have unlimited money and legions of people willing to debase themselves defending any incompetence out of pure team loyalty.
I think you need to put more weight on their qualifier word “peacefully”.
Do you have enough guns to fight the US military? No? Well neither do I.
Which is why there are steps that must be followed. And right now those are peaceful protest and voting. Making sure everyone votes.
The time for violence is likely coming, but it has to be after the election. After Trump blatantly ignores the will of the people.
The violence in the street is already happening. The violence in the courtrooms is already happening. The violence in universities is already happening. The violence in the legislative chambers is already happening. The violence at the homes of resistant politicians is already happening. Roll over, if you must.
You sweet summer child, you think you know what violence is. You most certainly do not.
No revolution has ever succeeded without the aid of the military. If the left kicks of the violent resistance too early, the military will not side with us, and in fact will join in the hunting us down part of things.
That’s why we have to follow specific steps. First is peaceful protest. Second is voting.
Third is violence. And if we get steps one and two right, we might not have our homes bombed as we sleep.
Gentlemen may cry, “Peace, peace” - but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!
You missed the “vote progressive in the primaries” part
Nope. I spent a decade working my ass off to do that and worked my way up to being a paid campaign staffer for progressive candidates.
I suggest you do the same so that you can learn what I did: the people who control the levers of power in the party will allow progressives to be elected, it helps keep the left flank in line, but they will never allow progressives to have enough power to change the fundamental nature of the party as a machine that turns bribes into Wall St friendly legislation.
The time to argue and complain about candidates is during the primaries. When a candidate for a party has been chosen you vote with the party. Out system is the way it is and no amount of protest votes are going to fix it. Do not vote 3rd party in the general election.
Im going to write in Hillary
Lemmy users in socialism.ml actually define Putin as progressive (I wish I was joking)
EDIT: look at them all brigading me below. PUTIN SUCKS and North Korea is an authoritarian shithole!
I love how you can just make shit up and libs eat it like slop, as long as its about someone they’re preconditioned to hate.
It really weakens your position too. Because people who aren’t familiar with the issue will see one side blatantly strawmanning and when they see the other side not mentioning that at all, they’ll just awesome the first side is full of shit. Even if their positions are corrects.
I find that .ml can sometimes be questionable, but yeah that sounds like a claim that needs evidence.
If they ever source their claims they always either point towards
- a singular incident by a new account
- someone saying something other than what they claim is being said
- someone who got banned for their reactionary tendencies
- a comment that got removed for its reactionary tendencies
Yeah, if its common there should be plenty of highly upvoted comments like that, and not just a meme/shitpost either.
Well, to be fair, they’re a bunch of idiots. So… no need to take them any more serious than you would MAGA.
Where? I would love to see one case of this happening.
I would show you, but mods deleted all my comments! Just criticize Putin, Stalin or Kim Jogn Un in the socialism.ml or memes.ml instance and you’ll instantly have -10 downvotes and probably a ban
lmao pointing out that the US has more people imprisoned than the USSR is not a mossad psyop
I am glad that people like you get banned
Its awesome how these people can just make up bullshit and never get punished on their instance.
I suppose thats a universal issue, but its still egregious.literally every time someone is like ‘woe is me the tankies got me, all i did was speak truth to power’ i look at the modlog and it’s them insulting people or being a reactionary
The only insult is your support of Putin and Stalin.
I’ve been banned for stating North Korea is an authoritarian shithole. Is that bullshit, in your opinion?
Considering what shows up in the modlog about you, and how you presented the same situation, I’m quite certain you werent just some uwu smol bean who merely said a country was authoritarian. You might have more succes talking about how unreasonable moderation is on specific instances, if you actually tell the truth about what happened.
That was not the comment I was banned for, and you know it.
80% of that figure weren’t imprisoned, they were on probation! Clearly misinformation when you look at the facts… that upsets Stalinists.
Have a sense of humor!
You got banned for repeatedly calling things you disagreed with a “mossad psyop” while completely failing to engage with any argument presented to you. You did not get banned for a specific comment, but for you behavior throughout the thread.
That doesn’t make sense. We’re not looking for your comments.
He said he would like to see one case of this happening… a comment would demonstrate that
No, he said he would like to see an example of an .ml user calling Putin progressive. Are you drunk?
Could we please not resort to ad hominem attacks and insults, “Nonconfrontational”? This isn’t Reddit.
Logically, I don’t follow where that was specifically asked, but here’s a comment calling Putin’s Russia progressive: https://lemmy.ml/comment/27815508
Can you post a screenshot of this? It sounds believable, but I’d rather have concrete evidence.
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But you would support Russian and Chinese genocide of Ukrainians and Uyghurs, respectively.
Lmao, do you actually think that “Uyghur genocide” means that China is carpet bombing Xinjiang 🤣
“Genocide” in China’s case means cultural genocide. It stands in for forced assimilation. China isn’t bombing every single school and hospital in Xinjiang and massacring hundreds of thousands of Uyghur people dumbass. And I don’t support the treatment of Uyghurs in China, nor do I support Ukraine’s invasion.
And this comment was really eye-opening. You American libs have made the word ‘genocide’ so fucking meaningless that you just throw it around for every single thing, including regular invasions. You didn’t watch the video I sent you of an actual genocide, did you?
The entirety of the Muslim world agrees that what China is doing is absolutely not genocide. Cultural or otherwise.
Okay I misunderstood your initial comment. I thought you were being one of those tankies.
Fix your brain man
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Looks like tankies and bots are working overtime.
What an erudite rebuttal. You sure disproved what I said with the absolutely no information you provided.
I assume the fact that you didn’t actually address either point is due to the fact that you know what instead dnwas correct and you’re salty your cable news talking heads haven’t given you the right talking points to get around that?
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Yeah, you clearly don’t have any actual rebuttal. I’d guess that you know I’m right and it pisses you off, so you’re lashing out. But I really don’t care very much. If your next response doesn’t actually address anything I’ve said, then you can fuck off to the block list and everyone who reads this later can know for absolutely certain that you agree I’m right, you just hate that fact.
Nice Ad hominem, how about you actually engage with the argument instead of retreating to the liberal psychosis of the “Everyone Who Disagrees With Me Is A Robot” conspiracy?
Nice ad hominem. How about saying that to those in Uyghur concentration camps.
??? Your comment is an actual ad hominem, do you not know what the words you use mean? An ad hominem is not just “when someone insults you” it is when someone dismisses the argument presented based on the perceived value of the character of the person making the argument - As you did when you failed to engage with the actual argument given and instead talked about some psychotic “bots and tankies”. You have to actually present an argument in order to for me to hit you with an ad hominem, which you’ve failed to do, which is what I pointed out.
Now you then also go on and move the goalposts. You and I have not discussed whatever it is you’re trying to discuss, in fact we’re discussing your failure to engage with someone who did discuss that with you. So why would I want to? You’ve so far shown you’re completely incapable.
(Dude this thread is 3 days old)
And people are still commenting
How’s that revolution coming along?
Yes, you are right, the alternative to not voting for a genocidal fascist is immediate revolution. Good little lib.
You’ve had over 100 years, so it’s just around the corner right?
What? I truly do not follow your line of thought here. You state that the alternative to voting for democrats yet again, is an immediate revolution, which I, sarcastically, point out as ridiculous. Is it because you thought I was serious?
Anyway your argument is also flawed. Leftist revolution has succeeded many times many places around the world. There is nobody waiting for a revolution to finally succeed, it has already done so many many times. Where it has yet to succeed is in the imperial core. I dont dare to claim to know why, but I would imagine the farce of “democracy” we have does not help the situation. It functions as a release valve for discontent, while changing nothing.
I support voting jackass, just not for genocidal neoliberals and DSA entryists. I know this will be shocking to you, but we have leftist parties in my country.
Maybe you can form one as well? Is that too much to ask of Americans?
No, do NOT do this. This just gives a boundary to the left and none to the right of the Democratic Party.
Always vote for “progressives” (or ideally socialists) in the primary. If you’re in a red state, consider even voting and running in the GOP primary instead.
If your candidate loses the primary, VOTE AGAINST THE PARTY IN THE GENERAL. Make it apparent that they either move to the left, or they lose.
And - crucially - join and form organizations that publicly state they will do exactly this.
VOTE AGAINST THE PARTY IN THE GENERAL
No, no, and no. Shit like that is how we got Trump. Stupid protest votes are not what’s needed right now.
Does it suck? Yes. Do you just have to hold your nose and do it? Yes. But voting against things or not voting is what put us in this situation.
The primaries are the time to push things left.
Not just no but hellfuck no.
If you’re a safe vote for the party, there is no reason they should ever even consider what you want when deciding on policy.
The primaries are the time to push things left.
The General is the time to punish sliding right.
Protest votes are exactly what’s needed right now.
Shit like that is how we got Trump
This statement tells me that you still don’t understand why Trump was a viable candidate (remember, wannabe fascist strongmen have run in the Republican primary since forever. They didn’t used to get the time of day from GOP primary voters).
Shit like voting Blue No Matter Who even after the Clintons sold the party body and soul to Wall St is how we got Trump. Ending Welfare as we know it is how we got Trump. Running on codifying Roe and abandoning the idea before the inauguration party hangovers have cleared is how we got Trump. Refusing to prosecute torture under Bush II and extending the Bush Tax Cuts is how we got Trump. Passing “insurance reform” that didn’t create a public option and did give private health insurance corps 5 consecutive quarters of record profits is how we got Trump. Using Ukraine as a pawn to fight a proxy war with Russia is how we got Trump.
I could go on, but if you refuse to see it with all that then there’s no hope for you anyway.
Shit like that is how we got Trump. Stupid protest votes are not what’s needed right now.
It literally is not. Go do the math yourself - there is literally not ONE state where protest votes, even counting right wing ones, made up the difference Kamala lost by.
The problem is that people, RIGHTFULLY SO, see that there’s no effect to their vote, and don’t bother voting for Democrats.
You want to fix that, you clean out the Democratic Party. And the way you do that is exactly how I describe above. You want to not have to fight the leadership, you’re going to continue to get the same failure you have for over 2 decades now. And that is how you got Trump.
I think you underestimate the number of people who protest voted by refusing to vote at all, which is neither an actual protest vote nor the same type of problem. Not that I think it would have been a guaranteed tipping point, but it sure would have made things a bit closer. Compound that with one of the (designed) effects of the electoral college (devaluing voter turnout in high-population states), and you widen that gap much more.
“America will have the most lethal military” and other signalings in favor of status quo imperialism sure did kill any interest for many left wingers to vote, and anecdotally I know many of my left-proclaiming peers took that as reason to forego the polls altogether.
I think you underestimate the number of people who protest voted by refusing to vote at all
So what you’re actually trying to say is that people not voting is how we got Trump? Because calling not votes protest votes is just beyond confusing.
You’re not incorrect - but honestly, blaming the voters rather than the candidate seems insane. Especially since 7 million more voters HAD come out in 2020, and the Democrats avoided even the appearance of a primary in 2024.
but it sure would have made things a bit closer
horseshoes and grenades
Learn from the past challenge
Difficulty: impossible
But why be partisan? Why not vote independently, after an earnest scrutiny of the candidates and issues, for the welfare of the people as a whole? It sounds good and it would be very nice if it would work. It would also be nice if pi were exactly 3.000 instead of a bothersome 3.14159 plus.
There are two reasons, one moral and one practical. The practical reason is this: You simply cannot be effective in politics unless you join in the process of compromise and conciliation whereby free men merge little groups into big groups until they accomplish a government. If you are not partisan you are on your own, everybody is out of step but Johnny, and the chances that you can have any effect on how this country is run are 140,000,000 to one against you.
–Robert A. Heinlein, Take Back Your Government
Issue with that tactic is that it’s actively being used to justify Chuck Schumer’s “for every big city liberal we alienate, we will gain 3 to 4 hillbillies from the rural area” schtick, which is costing democrats elections and us (the world) the real progressive movement.
Just tell Schumer his shtick cost everyone two presidential elections.
He doesn’t care.
The Democratic leadership would rather lose to the right than win with the left. Because the leadership is far to the right of the base.
A lot of DSA/progressives won the primaries because taking AIPAC money is now generally considered toxic. Also, there’s not currently a national election contest featuring blue-flavored genocide enablers. It’s almost like people learned something from the experience last election. Just running as “not as evil” isn’t really an effective electoral strategy or something.
There’s a big fucking difference between expressing this kind of sentiment before the primaries, when it has the possible outcome of changing the nominee from a neoliberal to a progressive or leftist, and expressing it after the primaries, when the only possible outcome is discouraging turnout for Democrats generally and thus helping the pro-genocide fascists.
By all means, yell from the hilltops about AIPAC-tained candidates etc. during the primary. That’s a good thing! But once the primary is over, it’s time to STFU about it if the nominee isn’t your preferred candidate because at that point there is no longer any better alternative.
Local lefties can make their own choices. The Fettermans and Sinemas have clearly shown themselves to be consistent enemies of progress.
yeah, i’m pretty sure if the democrat in a statesian race is taking AIPAC money, the republican is taking more. it’s like oil money.
This. Between the mid terms in a couple of months and the next primary I absolutely welcome it. We will call establishment Dems names, shit on their neoliberal policies, mock their strongly worded letters, search for their backbone, push everything from the big issues to our pet issues, engage with OUR candidates, and generally be a thorn in the side of the institution. Viva la fuck them guys.
But for the sake of all that is unholy, please vote for harm reduction once the primary is locked.
They know what they’re doing grue.
Which makes sense, but this is all still predicated on side B complying with rules.
The biggest worry I have is that this is pushing the animal of fascism into a corner, as must happen. The rapid buildup of the DoJ into a paramilitary organization at the beginning of Trumps turn indicates to me that he has no plans on relinquishing power, mid-terms be damned.
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
This is a quote from a liberal btw. Best to be prepared for the inevitable.
I live in a state with partially open primaries that goes red 90% of the time. In order to maximize the effectiveness of my vote and thereby maximize my voice, I registered as an independent and generally request a Republican primary ballot.
I then have to sift through each list of candidates looking for someone who doesn’t mention Trump and has a stated policy goal that isn’t evil. There’s usually one candidate who mentions their focus as being healthcare or education. This is a fairly laborious process and there are plenty of races where the least-worst option is still a horrible person. However, given the winner of the Republican primary has a 90% chance of winning the general AND voter turnout for the primary is generally under 10%, I know that this is effective.
Anyway, doing all this because it is the most logical course of action where I live and then seeing people cry about only agreeing with 87% of one candidate’s policy goals always annoys the hell out of me.
Same strategy in Utah. 100% logical and effective.
Doing gods work. Thank you soldier.
i live in california. back when we had limited/closed primaries (before the joke that’s the top two runoff now) everyone would register democrat because republicans didn’t have a chance in hell, and they wanted a say in which democrat got in elected.
I’ve done similar in the past. In my instance, this doesn’t necessarily work:
-
All of the R candidates mentioned Trump, directly. However, one of them mentioned Trump’s name in the context of opposing some of the more extreme and unpopular Trumpnanigans.
-
The ones who have a focus on healthcare and education have VERY different ideas on what it means to support those. Nearly universally they mean pushing healthcare even further into the private sector, allowing scam plans that cover practically nothing and are “insurance” in name only, or things like that. The ones talking about education want to privatize that that, switch to voucher systems that people can use in private schools, and other nefarious things like forcing Christianity into the schools.
But either way, these folks aren’t the ones who ultimately get chosen in the primary because they’re never extreme enough.
The crazy part about living in a rural, red district is that even the majority of Democrats on the primary are basically Republican-lite and often “former” Republicans. Go figure.
But either way, these folks aren’t the ones who ultimately get chosen in the primary because they’re never extreme enough.
I think this is primarily due to the fact that the practice hasn’t caught on or been promoted effectively in deep red states. If you had a movement to get people voting in the only election that matters in their state to the point where moderates started winning, you’d permanently start to shift the policy positions of candidates. Nikki Haley didn’t win the primary but she was only able to hang on as long as she did due to this strategy.
-
Isn’t it always pre-election? Every two years and all.
Meanwhile, the reason that the claim is so prevalent is because it is so true.
bOtH sIdEs are anti-union, anti-labor, pro-corporate, and pro-billionaire.
US workers have lost income and standard of living for over FIFTY YEARS. You will hear this for the rest of your life, because it’s an indisputable fact.
The USA needs a labor party, the Democrats are no labor party.
You are depicted in this meme, and you don’t seem to see it.
you are in a dystopian hell and you think you can vote your way out of it.
You are entirely missing the point.
You hear or see “Lesser Evil” and you think they’re saying “Good.”
Is the issue literacy? Is it stubbornness? Plain ol’ propaganda to destabilize the US?
propaganda to destablise the US
i think the issue is you still think your warmongering, nazi country still has a hope at not being evil.
That’s an impressively inaccurate read of what I wrote. Why are you wasting time working miracles in interpreting text when you could use your talents elsewhere?
Funny to accuse the other of strawmanning in a comment section under the most ridiculous caricature of what a liberal would like the leftist critique of their favorite color of genociders to be.
I know reading comprehension is abysmal in the US and online, but Jesus christ. If youre going to use fallacies as a rhetorical shield, then at least use them correctly. They’re not arguing against a strawman, they are making a conclusion on your beliefs, based on what you have written.
I think you need to read up on what a “conclusion” is, and how you draw one. Its pretty reasonable to assume, from what you wrote, that you think the United States, as a political entity, can be saved. The adjectives are clearly the author indicating their own personal opinion about the United States.
If you wanted to accuse the other of some sort of rhetorical fuckery, then the obvious one is changing the subject.But if we’re doing fallacies then this whole argument is built on the back of a false dilemma.
thanks, i was a little confused as to what they were trying to say my strawman was but decided i couldnt be bothered. glad someone can make my points for me :)
Funny to accuse the other of strawmanning in a comment section under the most ridiculous caricature of what a liberal would like the leftist critique of their favorite color of genociders to be.
Point it out then. Point out where I did that.
Its pretty reasonable to assume, from what you wrote, that you think the United States, as a political entity, can be saved.
Most if not all countries can be fixed. Even Germany was saved from fascism, and they went far deeper than most.
I think the issue is you see the democrats as “lesser” evil, despite them being gleeful participants in genocide, climate change, “tough-on-crime”-prison-slavery, deportation, police states and everything else. The only two practical differences are that Democrats are more competent administrators of empire and they’re less rude about bombing brown people.
Which is more dangerous to detonate, a grenade or a nuclear bomb?
Which is hotter, 60C or 100C?
It’s like you’re bending over backwards to refuse that the words “more” and “less” exist in English?
I really do need to get around to blocking lemmy.ml, apparently.
Whats more dangerous, a nuclear bomb or a nuclear bomb that’s kind of rude about doing the same stuff as the other one?
Its like youre bending over backwards to avoid discussing the fact that the two parties are the same, because this gross caricature where there is a measurable difference is easier for you to engage with morally and intellectually.
Whats more dangerous, a nuclear bomb or a nuclear bomb that’s kind of rude about doing the same stuff as the other one?
If you genuinely don’t believe open fascism is worse than tepid failure to properly address it, we’re never going to see eye to eye.
You believe that voting for the GOP is exactly, literally the same as not doing so? That’s just wrong, and you know it.
Again, it’s funny that 100% of the ridiculous arguments like this are coming from lemmy.ml. It’s so rare that a reasonable person comes from there.
Oh hey, you’re the one making ridiculous arguments against me above too. I guess I should just block you for now.
They might be the lesser evil to Americans but to the rest of us they’re just evil.
And to Americans they’re just evil too, they just dont notice because they’re more competent.
de stabalizing and balkanizing the US would be a blessing for humanity actually
All the tankies seem to think I said otherwise.
I’ve also noticed a significant increase in “the right did something awful and the left’s response wasn’t good enough, how could the left do that, the left is terrible, I’m not going to support them” type posts and replies.
Purity tests are bullshit, especially when the things that precipitated the “insufficient” response is literally fascism
There’s a huge difference between leftists and liberals. And I would argue most of the outrage is against liberals, not to leftist not responding properly. It’s amazing how many people still think liberals are leftists. We have 2 parties in the USA and both are right wing authoritarian shitfaces that serve billionaires and if you’re here to tell me to vote for the lesser of 2 evils when both are evil, you can go fuck yourself.
I’m here to tell you to stop attacking the lesser evil for getting in bed with oligarchs when the greater evil is actively murdering people in the streets. I’m here to tell you to stop attacking the lesser evil for bad tax policy when the greater evil is denying children food.
I’m here to tell you to stop doing the greater evil’s job for them.
You can hate the lesser evil without making it easier for the greater evil to succeed.
If you spend a disproportionate amount of time focused on pointing out how the lesser evil is still evil, compared to the amount of time you spend fighting the greater evil, then you are a just a tool of the greater evil.
“But they’re both evil” false equivalency bullshit is a position you can only take if you’re privileged enough not to be ground into dust under the boots of the greater evil. And waxing philosophic about the merits of rejecting the lesser evil while the greater evil continued to murder and destroy is self-centered, self-aggrandizing, callous disregard for the the people whose lives are in jeopardy right now, today, because of the greater evil.
Imagine a German citizen during the Third Reich saying shit like “Hitler may be evil, but we can’t support these other, less evil politicians who supported Article 48”. It’s grotesque.
Go read up on the history of the SPD and KPD and their lack of unity against fascism. It’s literally the same shit happening today where opposition to fascism is incapable of uniting to stop the horrors that would follow.
Buddy, if you think dems are going to roll back ANYTHING that Trump has implemented these last couple years and what he will enact as he finishes his term, you’re living in a fucking fantasy land. The Dems literally campaigned on “Nothing will fundamentally change” when going against Donnie both times. They are happy to see these policies enacted as they aren’t the ones who will take the blame for them, but they damn sure will not try and repeal them.
Get fucked on your lesser of 2 evils bullshit.
okay tankie. enjoy the fascism. fucking tool of the right, doing their work for them. disgusting
Lmao immediately calls me a tankie for pointing out how Democrats are the useful idiots of the right. I have, nowhere in this entire conversation or anywhere in my profile, commented that Dems and Republicans need to be shot and killed to progress society. But please, keep conflating points to fit your narrative you fucking snowflake.
When your arguments place you on the same side as a particular group of awful people you need not regurgitate their credo word for word to find yourself associated with their ideology.
We are the company we keep.
Alright, let’s follow your logic: Your arguments place you on the same side as people who were committing a genocide, who vote for the genocide to continue, who expand the police state, who ran on being harsher on immigration than Trump, who sicced cops on peaceful protesters, who had rioters disappeared in black vans, who sought to increase tensions with China whenever possible, who had nothing to say about persecution of queer people, who expanded fracking and did nothing to alleviate the climate catastrophe, who did nothing to stop Roe v Wade from being overturned, who turned on the MeToo movement as soon as Their Guy got targeted, who concluded they lost because they were “too woke”, who kicks left every chance they get, and so much more… but it’s okay because the other team has a fat guy who’s kind of rude about doing the same things AND he’s worse at administrating the empire.
That’s who your arguments place you next to. The other posters arguments place them next to people who oppose genocide.
The fascism was already here under the democrats. You just didnt notice because the news told you not to worry about it.
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Macklemore said he’d never vote for Biden in one of his songs.
Let’s talk about that.
Dude isn’t a fucking saint, he’s a dumbass. Free Palestine, though.
> mad at macklemore for not being willing to vote for genocide Joe
> free Palestine, though“Coexist” I mutter serenely as I shoot up a mosque.
I’ve heard so called “liberal” media discuss and condemn Hassan Piker more than I’ve seen them discuss and condemn Trump and all his lackeys combined.
They’re the definition of controlled opposition.
This is such an annoying discussion at this point. The “let’s keep doing what we’ve always done because obviously that’s working” folks never really engage with any arguments. They just ignore what people say and keep attacking the same strawmen over and over.
“Both metallica and the strokes have a guitar player”
“Oh so you’re saying that metallica and the strokes are the same? That’s so ridiculous, they don’t even have the same number of members, you idiot.”
It’s so tiresome and pointless. And quite upsetting as well, because in attacking some of the strawmen, the “stay the course, this is going well” folks sometimes say some really heinous thing, bordering on full on genocide denial, or even worse, acknowledging the genocide but essentially saying “not my problem”. It’s really upsetting to read such things.
I guess that’s at the core of it actually. It’s one group of people that look at the millions of people that American imperialism has killed, and the way both parties have toed the exact same line on imperialism specifically, and consider this absolutely unacceptable. And on the other side you have people looking at this and thinking “yeah but what about my problems, the parties are different there”. It’s a fundamental difference in values, and there’s no amount of convincing that either side can do to bridge that gap.
Anyway, here’s my favorite Hannah Arendt quote, because I refuse to accept that we cannot somehow learn, eventually, from the holocaust:
In their moral justification, the argument of the lesser evil has played a prominent role. If you are confronted with two evils, the argument runs, it is your duty to opt for the lesser one, whereas it is irresponsible to refuse to choose altogether. Its weakness has always been that those who choose the lesser evil forget quickly that they chose evil.
I am not sure the group that thinks American Imperialism has killed millions is significant in American politics. Perhaps here on Lemmy there are quite a few people who rightly say this, but the vast majority of Americans reject this thought outright.
I view it as one group who is fine with the status quo so much they will fight to keep it that way. They are resistant to change and feel that the strong hierarchal orders are good and that people have their place and should stay there. They are a strong minority.
You have another group of people who don’t really care and kind of just go where the wind takes them. They don’t have particularly strong political beliefs. They are mostly self serving but generally good natured. These people are the majority.
You have the last group of people who are against the status quo for a myriad of reasons. They embrace change and are resistant to hierarchal structures. They are not really organized as they are incredibly diverse in their reasonings and are generally a weak minority.
I think the annoying part comes from the lack of critical thought and introspection. There are so many good ways to solve our problems we have never even thought of. There are solutions to moving forward and we absolutely have to find them.
I am not sure the group that thinks American Imperialism has killed millions is significant in American politics. Perhaps here on Lemmy there are quite a few people who rightly say this, but the vast majority of Americans reject this thought outright.
I agree with this, and my comment really focusses on the discussion here, on this niche forum. But I do think that a slightly amended version of this sentiment is broadly popular in the electorate. Something along the lines of “bring our boys home” or “we don’t need to be spending our tax dollars on this”. The motivation is much more selfish, but the desired outcome has significant overlap with the anti-imperialist sentiment, namely the cessation of war or funding genocide (the anti imperialist stance is broader than this, and would for example also be against the sanctions on Cuba, but this people really just don’t give a shit about generally). I believe it’s a big part of why the candidate promising “no new wars” won over the candidate promising to “ensure that america has the most lethal fighting force in the world” in the last presidential election.
No notes on the rest of your comment. “Fuck you I got mine” is infuriating.
You knew it was going to shit the moment the" no new wars" candidate’s administration changed the Department of Defense to the Department of War. While a certain part of me does feel that the US deserved what it got it is hard not to see the epic rug pull here.
but the vast majority of Americans reject this thought outright.
In that case, Trump is probably the best option for them. He’s too stupid to lie effectively, and wil destroy the American Empire that this refusal to engage with reality allows for now.
Is voting the end all be all of one’s political choices? Or perhaps after mitigating the worst outcome, people could have recognized that there is more work to be done?
Because voting democrat is not necessarily an endorsement of them, at least in a two party system. It is a condemnation of the other party. Thus, voting democrat is not choosing a lesser evil it is rejecting a greater one.
I’ve previously voted democrat because of great deal many completely unselfish reasons that would have helped people other than myself. Sure, self interest played a role, but it was far from the main reason.
Now… spite and self interest is kind of is my main reason this midterm election, but that’s because I’ve grown to simply hate most people after November 2024 as its dawned on me the number of selfish imbeciles I’m drowning in and assume we’re fucked anyway so might as well get some relief before the big funny kills all/most/many of us, whatever it may specifically be.
It should also be noted that choosing not to choose, is also a choice, and not necessarily the lesser evil.
In other words, just because you didn’t choose for one of two poor options, doesn’t mean you didn’t make a choice for a third option you believe to be a lesser evil.
BlueMAGA, now as into conspiracy theories as their red bretheren, and for the same reasons.
I’m sorry you’re worried that the Democrats strategy of doing nothing might not pay off, and that endorsing genocide still is such a loser issue. But that doesn’t mean the people refusing to share your party loyalty over any common sense are part of a conspiracy, foreign or domestic.
Let me say as a person who used to care about elections for self interest and humanitarian reasons but at this point kind of no longer gives much of a shit about elections other than being fueled by self interest and a new sense of deep and bitter spite:
Voting for a party doesn’t equal party loyalty. Pointing out that one party is significantly worse than the one you think people should vote for isn’t party loyalty either. You can hate both parties and still vote for one and have good reasons to do so and encourage others to do the same with good reasons to do so.
Either you are an imbecile and don’t know what words mean and shouldn’t be posting and embarrassing yourself or you are a scumbag liar pretending to not know what words mean. In either case everyone should ignore you.
Average Trump XO:
“Both sides same tho”
I’m glad you think that a meaningless Easter message is worth the lives of hundreds of thousands of people in Gaza, along with any electoral future for the left in the US.
You can just go out and say you don’t actually care about policies that affect people’s lives, it’s faster. Roe overturned, ICE on the streets, an incomprehensible amount of lifesaving aid to the most desperate people in the world cut, but “both sides same”.
How are the Palestinians doing under Trump?
Hint:
Roe overturned
That happened under Biden. You know, when people did exactly that Vote Blue No Matter Who nonsense you’re advocating?
ICE on the streets
Again, the Democrats have supported ICE and continue to fund it.
You’re literally providing examples of why you’re wrong.
but “both sides same”.
Only one who has said that is you. The point exactly is that the Democrats are similar enough to the GOP to where you should not support them as they are.
Who appointed the justices?
Is ICE doing the same thing this year as they did 2 years ago?
Are you this wildly misinformed, or are you jerking my chain here?
Who appointed the justices?
Who let them be appointed? Who did fuck all about it? Who, hubristically, assumed victory and thus let yet another geriatric sit forever until she died? Who did nothing to get their justices in, when they could’ve? Who used NONE of the tools available to them to get rid of the justices that were there?
Is ICE doing the same thing this year as they did 2 years ago?
No. They’re doing the same, in a more blatant manner, which makes you notice and care.
Ahh yes because the common people all voted for the Supreme Court justices lmfao
Roe overturned
On June 24, 2022, the Court issued a decision
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dobbs_v._Jackson_Women's_Health_Organization
Blaming principled leftists for the Dems complete lack of will to even try to protect reproductive rights is such a reach.
All the left-kickers can ever do is blame leftists for their own failures. Somehow it’s leftists’ fault that the Democrats sat on their hands and let Republicans shove justices through during the Trump admin, it’s the leftists’ fault that RBG didn’t retire, it’s the leftists’ fault that Democrats didn’t pass laws to make abortion legal nationwide. Somehow Republicans can do everything they want instantly and Democrats can do nothing, but God help you if you say they suck shit.
The palestinians are being genocided under Trump, just as they were under Biden. That doesn’t really matter to you though, you see genocide as a fringe issue that you can use as a cheap dunk. You somehow only started to pretend to care when your team wasn’t in charge.
Biden deported more people than Trump, Kamala ran on being harsher on immigration than Trump, ICE was made permanent by Obama.
USAID was a front for regime change, as well as an aid organisation. It is debatable whether it did more good or bad.
Roe was overturned under Biden, and he was warned before it happened, yet did nothing. Roe could have been codified under Obama, yet it wasn’t. The Supreme Court is packed with right wing justices because the democrats allowed it to be + hubris. They wanted RGB to retire under a Hillary presidency, yet she was already decrepit as fuck beforehand.
Somehow this is the lefts fault.
Yes, I’ve noticed. The electoralists have started their screeching as they do very two years. They’re like cicadas.
Lemmy in my experience has been like this.
“Hey Republican did evil thing”
Well DID YOU KNOOOOOW DEMOCRAT ALSO BAD??!
Swap Democrat and Republican and that’s been my experience. No criticism may be brought up about Democrats without “yeah well Republicans are evil so you must hate (insert minority here)” without even asking who I voted for in any election. It’s instant worst assumption when all I want is a politician who isn’t bought and paid for.
It’s so weird because it makes me defend the Democrats and I hate the Democrats.
hey i hate the democrats too! you know you dont have to defend them just cause leftists are shitting on their incompetence and complicity
Same
For me this has been on reddit and YT comments.
Its almost as if these posts are put up to be divisive, and to keep any opposition to the current right wing neoliberal order divided. Huh.
Do you think the Democratic Party opposes the neoliberal order?
TIL Pelosi is the only democrat.
Democrats and liberals by definition are pro capitalism. Stop conflating leftists and liberals. Leftism begins at anti capitalism.
Liberalism historically from its inception has believed people have certain rights, right to “free market “ as they say is one of those. In the US Democrats also go by liberal, but not all liberals and democrats know their position is definitionally pro capitalism and liberal has taken on a definition of left of conservatives/republicans that most Americans have not dug in that far.
TLDR To speak American politics their are conservatives/Republicans and everyone else is liberal, including in that camp progressives, leftists, Bernie Bros, anarchists. To speak Leftist politics, you have Leftists, Anarchists, Liberals (including conservatives, liberals, progressives because all their policies are pro capitalism )
Spoken like someone who can observe objective reality, unlike USA Dems.
I wasn’t arguing with you
Sorry, I think I got caught up on your TLDR. But rereading, yes I can see you’re agreeing. My mistake.
Democrats are a political party, one that hasn’t had a consistent ideological set of beliefs throughout its own existence. For that matter neither has the republican party.
They are not “by definition” pro capitalism.
Well, they’ve always been capitalist. There’s never been a time when they weren’t capitalist. So… odd argument to make.
You and @Space_Cowboy92 don’t seem to have the best reading comprehension.
I was refuting that democrats are “by definition” pro capitalist. Not whether the party leadership always had an explicit pro capitalist agenda. Those are different things.
Now, I did say their ideology has changed, which is also true. I said that to support my argument, but it was not the point I was making in of itself.
Weaseling in a word that indicates an immutable and intrinsic trait to something that is not immutable in that way and then subtly backpedaling to a different stance is slimy.
Yes, in theory, if we remove all the current leadership, the Democrats could not be capitalist.
And, given how US election law is written, which has carve outs for the Dems all over the place to avoid 3rd parties, that is what is needed.
But the Democrats as they now and in all times past have been are capitalist.
They 1000% are pro capitalism in the United States. You’re eithe fucking stupid, or not a citizen of the USA to think democrats are not pro capitalism.
Did you know she was speaker of the house? That’s, like, a big deal.
It doesn’t matter what random Democrats think (obviously), it matters what the leadership thinks.
This is almost repeating the argument that is literally what the OP is getting at.
The point is democrats and republicans are not the fucking same and people who say they are are not serious people or worth serious consideration.
So, to repeat the question, do you think the Democratic Party, of which Pelosi is a leader and not even the most right wing one, opposes the neoliberal order?
That isn’t the question, that is a pivot, but fuck it I’ll bite.
Do you really need to fucking use the term “neoliberal order”? You sound like you are talking about an evil cabal in Deus Ex. I can’t take it seriously. Just say capitalism. Do they oppose capitalism as a whole party? No.
But some of them individually certainly seem to and the ones talking to most leftwing politics are doing generally pretty decently right now in primaries and generals.
But whatever, really at this point who fucking cares? No one gives a fuck about reality anymore and the world is going to collapse into garbage regardless. Getting democrats at this point is just an opiate vs getting republicans which would be more like being fucked by a knife on our collective deathbed.
Give me the drug. I prefer the drug over the knife fucking. OK? Its that simple.
Carrying the flame, even.
I like these threads because they make it easy to see who to block.
you should block me if you haven’t already, my posts are for cool people only
Cool people block you?
the less insufferable assholes responding to me the better as far as i’m concerned
Did you just graduate kindergarten? What a dogshit comeback
Leave an insult on the floor and the owner will be by to pick it up shortly.
You have to be american to believe this because for others, dems and reps are like 99% hitler and 99.5% hitler
That’s exactly what the meme says!
Did you know that 99.5 > 99?
its not what the meme says
it says dems are 5% hitler and reps are 99.5% hitler, completely false.
I still don’t even fully agree with this.
Democrats will give lip service about healthcare when they have no chance of passing it, then when they do, 20% of them will fuss over details, dooming it. But they won’t actively rail against healthcare measures or vote largely in favor of corporate-driven DOD spending packages.
Most of their fault is in choosing not to fight Republican measures as hard as they can.
They could have passed it, Democrats chose not to. Likewise with minimum wage, and much more.
(look up the nuclear option. They never, ever need a super majority to pass a bill. Ever. It’s a parliamentary rule ONLY)
Most of their fault is in choosing not to fight Republican measures as hard as they can.
Your comment was edited, so I’ll address this sentence only. Democrats choose to accept money from “donators”, and in return they purposefully decide, by not challenging parliamentary procedure (which they do often otherwise), to let a bill die. Like, for example, minimum wage increase under Biden.
His platform. They didn’t even pretend to fight. And by “fight” I mean change a parliamentary rule by majority vote to pass a bill.
Oh, okay.
Did you know that 99 < 99.5?
Did you know that voting for 99% Hitler over 99.5% Hitler still makes you a fucking Nazi?
Yup!
Did you know 99 < 99.5? Cause it kinda feels like you don’t.
I do know that, Nazi.
I just don’t give a single angstrom of a fuck why you think it’s worth supporting 99% Hitler over 99.5% Hitler. Because I’m not a Nazi, so I don’t care how pure the Hitler particles in the puppet of the bourgeoisie I have to see on Television are.
So you’re in favor of 99.5% Hitler, gotcha. Mr. Not a nazi.
So you’re saying you’d vote for Hitler?
Hey, I know you have trouble with reading comprehension from the other thread, so why don’t you try that one again.
Maybe loosen your cap, too. Improve blood flow to the brain.
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Answer: you’re literally the meme in the OP.
Not as much once I started ignoring a bunch of .ml instances.
.ml saying “don’t vote!” can practically be used as an election reminder.
Oh, they’re telling us not to vote again? Must be an election coming up soon – I should make sure I’ve got my ballot.
