It’s amusing to me that the same folks to deride Chinese car manufacturers because they are somehow cheating by getting support from the government are the same people demanding that the US government artificially protect the US car industry by blocking Chinese imports. The point being that neither side actually objects to government participation in the market. But, one side uses it to make better products and service consumers, and the other does it to protect worse products from market forces.
“A free market is self regulating” until someone makes a better product for less money, I guess.
We tasted some of that self regulating ‘free market’ a while ago. Banks were having huge profits from the housing bubble until the subprime crisis hit, banks went into default, and the losses were picked up by public money.
My profit. Our losses.
My profit. Your losses.
The point both of you deliberately overlook is that China is not participating in a free market anyway. They never played by those rules so there‘s no point in treating them the same way as anyone who does. There is a lot of hypocrisy to be found in politics and economics around the world and China itself is a prime example of that. But a measure to defend yourself from an obvious case of economic warfare is the most understandable thing in history. Your criticism is misplaced and irrational. I mean do you seriously think a monopoly is desirable?
We’ve had of ecocomic warfare already. It was just fine for US companies to hollow out domestic manufacturing so China could build the manufacturing infrastructure that could have been built in the US.
But now that a Chinese company is building things that undercut a US company, you want protections for US billionaires that weren’t afforded to US workers.
Are you ignoring the whole subsidies thing on purpose? This is not BYD attacking Tesla. This is the Chinese government attacking western industries.
USA subsidized Detroit $80B since 2008, and that’s ignoring state graft for building assembly plants. What the fuck did they do with that money, attack Eastern industries?
Well, it was $79.7B to be exact. And what the US government did with that was not cut checks, but rather, purchased stock in the companies.
When it sold the stock it bought from manufacturers, it sold for around $70B. When they sold the approximately $2.4B invested into Ally (an auto financing firm), it sold for $17.2B.
So the money spent in 2008 actually made a profit. It was not distributed to the manufacturers or finance companies at all. Just used to shore up their value to prevent them from going out of business – and more importantly, probably, make sure investors didn’t lose money, or at least not too much.
Well, it was $79.7B to be exact.
oh, touche! but that was only after 2008, and not including previous bailouts to Ford. Then, every state, everywhere is paying to either get or keep assembly plants but that does not factor into your selective math.
When you take into account inflation and the overall market gains over that time, they absolutely did not make their money back.
This is BYD selling cars for less than the billionaires you care about want to.
Nothing more.
If an American company badge engineered these cars and sold them in the US at US prices, you would be fine with it just like you’re fine with the economic warfare against the poor that US manufacturers and China have been allies in for decades.
American companies only make up a small portion of the US auto industry.
When has the US ever participated in a free market?
Man…interweb really drinks that anti-China koolaid.
Decades of propaganda works. Centuries of racism helps as well.
I don’t think anyone is denying Chinese aggressive intent here, just our response. Give us a response where we can get onboard, a response that is more legitimate than their approach, and wecan all be mad at China.
Or think of it this way. We all agree on all the ways China are the bad guys, but our behavior is making them look like the good guys. wtf are we doing?
there’s no point in treating them the same way as anyone who
doespretends to.ftfy
China defends its interests and follows what rules it deems advantageous. Just like everyone else does. It may upset you but they’re just better at playing this game than most countries nowadays.
After that it’s “unfair competition” and the state has to intervene
People CONSTANTLY harp on Chinese government support of the EV industry.
Name one ICE manufacturer not taking state and federal money. Detroit took $80B in handouts after 2008. That’s far more than the Chinese government has spent, and the largest investor in Chinese industry, by far, has been Apple Computers.
So China ended up with a new industry taking the world stage. What did we get from Detroit? Bloated low tech shit boxes that barely make it past warranty.
The UK was constantly bribing car makers to stay, and most of them still fucked off.
Australia just gave up and told GM and Ford to go it alone. The fact that they shut it all down in 2017 says there was no business plan without government subsidies.
Well there is a plan, it’s just “make them in countries where you can still have slaves”.
What did we get from Detroit? Bloated low tech shit boxes that barely make it past warranty.
Don’t forget the bailouts:
Better products? What about geopolitical interests? If China doesn’t need oil then they don’t have to care if the strait of Hormuz is open or closed.
It’s a nice added benefit that they are better for the air, quieter and have more cargo space.
“Struggling” implies the American Auto industry is at least trying to keep pace. But really, they aren’t trying at all. They are content to sit back thinking their current flock of geese will lay golden eggs forever even as more and more of those geese drop dead from old age.
That‘s the main problem in Europe as well. I don‘t mind tariffs on heavily subsidized cars that are designed not to make profit but to destroy our industries. However, even then our manufacturers are in a constant crisis mode and unable to adapt. It‘s really pathetic.
But hey, when the car lobby is dead maybe that means more trains and cycling paths in the long run? Perhaps there‘s an opportunity here.
It’s all thanks to Germany though. They are the ones who have succeeded in scrapping the bill to ban new ICE vehicle sales after 2035
Canada did the same thing. We also got rid of the carbon levy.
our manufacturers are in a constant crisis mode and unable to adapt
in 2023, Tesla released all the specs to move EVs to a 48V architecture to Detroit, saving a tremendous amount of wiring and eliminating the need for most sub systems and secondary computers. Detroit just ignored it, until 2026, and now Ford invented 48V architecture.
But really, they aren’t trying at all.
GM’s biggest sales increases are with Cadillac EVs last year.
Detroit followed the Tesla model, with the highest profit margins in the industry because their CEO convinced simps EVs should be expensive. So they jumped in early with poorly designed and expensive vehicles, thinking Tesla stans were everywhere.
There was a time, worldwide, if you just wanted a reliable and low cost sedan, you bought a Ford or Chevy, and they sold millions. But round 2016, Detroit lost interest in lower cost vehicles, and by 2020, they got addicted to price gouging cheap vehicles to make them expensive, and why not, people were paying $70,000+ for a Jeep and just taking it up the ass.
Given Detroit abandoned that part of the market, they shouldn’t care if Chinese EVs arrive, right? Because their $60,000 EVs are a better product, right?
Tesla was definitely trying…
Ah Tesla… I too attempt to accomplish tasks by being a leader and going completely insane.
Tesla was a tech leader before Musk showed up. As soon as he weasled his way in and declared himself a founder retroactively, the best engineers left and started Rivian and Lucid, both of which make better vehicles. On his watch, they made that stupid SUV with gullwing doors no one can open in a garage, then the Cybertruck.
People only prefer BYD to Cybertrucks because the government is not adding ketamine to drinking water.
American Auto Industry Struggles to Keep Pace
You mean lobbies the government to ban Chinese EVs, because they have no means of competing whatsoever? Free market for me, but not for thee.
Has always been this way. Back in the late 70/early 80s, Harley couldn’t compete with the Japanese bikes so they lobbied to daddy fed to make sure all the foreign bikes got tarriffed out of existence over 700cc. So the Japanese said “hold my soju” and made 699cc motorcycles that still made more power than the gargantuan Harley bikes of the time. USA has always tried to give US based companies a leg up over objectively superior products. Our tax dollars are why there are any American car companies left, sure Ford didn’t get a direct bail out but we use them for police and other service vehicles across the country which has helped keep them afloat. Plus obviously Chrysler and GM taking govt bailouts and still flailing desperately while making trash vehicles and wondering why they don’t sell. The American auto industry doesn’t struggle to keep pace, it has NEVER caught up to or even compared to the rest of the world. They have always been 30+ years behind any European or Asian vehicle.
So the Japanese said “hold my sake”
FTFY. Soju is Korean.
Thank you🙏believe it or not I’ve been to korea before so I should know that… Been many years.
They could’ve been asking for their shochu to be held though
Not like other countries arent doing the literal same.
But we also dont scream into the world that we are “LaNd oF tHe FrEe”There was a while when the US was on top, revolutionizing automotive manufacturing. Ford’s Model T and later Model A sold like crazy.
1,036 km (644 miles) on a single charge under China’s CLTC testing standard.
Does anyone know how realistic this range is? You can get some absurd range from a vehicle if you’re driving on a closed course at 60kmh with no air conditioning or entertainment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Light-Duty_Vehicle_Test_Cycle
The CLTC testing accounts for the country’s higher congestion levels with more frequent stop-and-go and lower speed limits, which lead to increased low-speed driving and longer idling times that benefits electric vehicles.
Right, so you’re not getting anywhere near that on the open road.
Right. Open road should be more around 770Km. I have a BYD Han 2023 that has a claimed range of 550Km, and I get just about 420Km realistically, at a steady 110Km/h with a few bursts of up to 150Km/h to get away from idiots doing 80 on a 100 (or just to show off the torque to other types of idiots like BMW and some Tesla drivers 😏). I do still get a bit over the claimed 550 if I don’t leave the city and drive as if I was afraid of tickets.
with a few bursts of up to 150Km/h to get away from idiots doing 80 on a 100 (or just to show off the torque to other types of idiots like BMW and some Tesla drivers 😏)
Yeah, they’re the idiots. Not the one going 50 over while showing off…
Lol. I do break the law some times by speeding, but have almost no tickets, so that’s a win, haha.
WLTP, which is closer to US Highway driving, estimates 800 km. Or 500 Eagles.
I mean, that’s still pretty darn impressive.
For better or worse, it’s one of those sticking points keeping many away from electric. I was like that several years ago, but I’ve noticed my driving patterns since then. I can’t do electric because I can’t afford a new car and even worse I’m an apartment dweller, so there’s no infrastructure. But if I could, I absolutely would get a vehicle. Long as it had a couple hundred miles of range, that’s all I need (we have a second car anyway, so if we needed longer trips, we’re covered). And less battery means moving less mass means even cheaper to run.
But my dad went looking a few years ago and ended up with a gas car again - because they do take trips and drive sometimes, and so the idea of having to recharge, even on infrequent trips, was a sticking point. But with 500 miles of range, it’s getting to the point where that’s getting close to a day’s comfortable driving for a lot of people, and if you can charge overnight, then it becomes enough for trips and it helps eliminate the range anxiety.
I think once people start transitioning over to electric, their second vehicle might have less range…
I mean, that’s still pretty darn impressive.
Is it? 122 KWhr battery -they are just piling in more batteries, which means a huge waste on energy and money on carrying around battery packs.
Who drives 500 eagles without stopping?
I mean they can just fly out the window
Came across this which I’ve not validated but does seem to make sense at a glance: Comparison of WLTP and CLTC
Based on that the WLTP range would be 828-900km (515-560 miles).
Real world, 6-700km at a guess?
The WLTP is pretty accurate to the actual range I get on my BYD.
Cut another third off that in cold weather.
Yeah, the EV range is frustrating.
270 miles? Pretty good. Except you shouldn’t drive it below 20% or above 80%, so really the range is like 170. Cold winter? Now it’s like 75.
No regrets on our EV, but I would feel a whole more more comfortable with 2x the capacity.
Too bad we can’t buy BYD here.
Your mileage may vary.
1000km range is fucking stupid. No one should be driving that far at once, and they rest of the time you waste energy and money just carrying around thousands of pounds of batteries.
Then there is the fun of a car crash and shorting out over 120KW of energy.
Ya, why do those big trucks have 40 gallon gas tanks? Not like anyone ever needs to drive that far at once.
So we are now comparing daily drivers to long haul truckers?
Should we all be driving this?
A man can dream.
What are you taking about?
No one should be driving that far at once,
What a ridiculous blanket statement.
Nobody should make such silly blanket statements. :P
in non shit hole countries, driving that far without breaks is illegal.
in shit holes, over 40,000 are killed and countless more maimed for life on highways. Every year.
When the selfdriving feature gets even better, 1000 km will be useful.
When the selfdriving feature gets even better,
you must be excited about this guy showing up next month.
Self driving is absolutely a thing. FULL self driving like what Tesla tries to bullshit about is a way off.
1000km range is fucking stupid. No one should be driving that far at once
I’ve done it several times. It happens.
the rest of the time you waste energy and money just carrying around thousands of pounds of batteries.
It would certainly be interesting if EV’s had a means to load or unload batteries for more or less capacity. If the majority of the time you’re driving local it would certainly be better having a smaller battery pack loaded and then load more when you need the range. We’re a long way from being able to do that unfortunately
I’ve done a bit over 900km in a day a few times, it’s a full day, but easily done.
American Auto Industry Struggles to Keep Pace
Them being end up second place isn’t new, as these makers can’t help but throw in too many features but cut out the quality or improve efficiency, such as being unable to match the fuel efficiency of non-US compact cars more than 50 years ago.
The Chinese models have more features, more technology, and more connectivity.
Exactly what I don’t want from a car. I want fewer features implemented better, higher build quality, and zero connectivity.
The only feature I want is for it to go from A to B for 150kkm without needing major repairs.
Me neither. Please give me as little as possible.
It doesn’t matter US is so protectionist that american car brands simply can’t fail. Which tbf is understandable and the case in most countries but the point being that car competition domestically is only worthwhile discussion from protectionism pov not actual technology
644 mile range? But what if I need to drive 650 miles once in a decade? Electric cars are just a stoopid fad.
The US auto industry and market abandoned fuel efficient vehicles and continue to fail to improve BEV’s and the infrastructure to support them.
I wish they would publish the battery capacity and fast charge rate. Assuming 4 miles per kWh I estimate it to be around 160kWh. If it can fast charge using a Megawatt charger then it could likely go from 20% to 80% in roughly 10 minutes gaining about 384 miles of range.
The American Auto Industry has been struggling to keep pace since the 80s lmao
They only exist because they threw their money at congress to make horsecrap legislation that bans competition.
They even assassinated sedans with EPA laws that stimulates everyone to make SUVs lol.
The only thing they can do is lobby, build bigger, expliot loopholes and maximize their margins.
They need to hire a design studio, it’s really ugly
I dig it.
you sure?
(￣(ｴ)￣) Nevermind
