I find it funny to watch these countries having issues with people not wanting to have babies.
There are core reasons behind this, one large one being “raising a child is expensive and all the world’s money is being sucked up by billionaires, there is nothing left for children”. Another one (for certain countries like Japan and South Korea) is the “work 80 hours a week and never see that family you’re supposed to raise”
And governments go like “sooooo, if we cover child birth, you’re good, right? What? Still nothing? We tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas, how oh how can we solve this?”
Fuck the rich, end the rich. That will get births back to a healthy 2.1
officials have already expanded maternity leave benefits and housing subsidies to encourage couples to have more children.
Seems like they’re trying multiple things. Meanwhile we’re over here trying to say middle school kids can be paid less than minimum wage, operate dangerous machinery and work late on school nights. If you can’t afford kids, might as well exploit them
And then they help pay the roughly $15,000 usd per yr per child it costs to raise a child right?
Becauae it would be really bad if China helped pay for a ton of kids to be born that can’t be provided for.
Kids can pull themselves up by the bootstraps… factories are hiring…
/s
It’s great, but I had kind of assumed it was already in place.
Desperation?
People don’t want to have kids. I wonder why. Remember the laying flat movement and the 996 culture.
I wonder why.
If only there was an actual solution to this LOLOL…
If I lived under an authoritarian regime, I would not want to bring a child into it.
lived under an authoritarian regime
I mean… isn’t that just most of history tbh?
Most people aren’t antinatalists lol
The truth is that the strength of a democracy has little relation to the birth rate. If you live in the US, for example, you only live in a democracy if your income is in the top 10%. This has actually been studied. The opinions of the poorest 90% of the population have absolutely zero bearing on what government policy is implemented.
The US and China actually have similar levels of democracy. China forms all its policies from the CCP, an organization of about 100 million people. The share of the population in China that has any impact on policy is actually quite similar to the share that does the same in the US.
It’s true. The very poor people I’ve known in the US have believed that “the system is rigged” and they have little freedom and no voice. They believe they are exploited by powers far beyond their ability to challenge and the last way any of it would ever change is through voting, which they see as an empty, farcical gesture.
While you are correct, taking a piss poor example of democracy against another piss poor example of democracy doesn’t really explain anything. I said authoritarian regime, I stand by that.
I live in a democracy and don’t want to bring children into this.
Ehh, the character of the regime doesn’t seem to affect birth rates a whole lot. Brutal dictatorships that make China seem like a gentle puppy could have perfectly ok birth rates. E.g. Nazi Germany had 2.5 fertility rate in 1939 and 1940, it was their highest since 1922: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany
I really don’t think the average Chinese cares too much about how authoritarian their govt is when it comes to deciding on whether to have kids. The consequences of one-child policy, economic prospects, stability, general cultural optimism/pessimism, social habits (and the effects of technology on them), etc. are all likely to be much more important factors.
The consequences of one-child policy, economic prospects, stability, general cultural optimism/pessimism, social habits (and the effects of technology on them), etc. are all likely to be much more important factors.
Those are all directly and heavily influenced by an authoritarian regime, so in the exhale you disagree with me, while on the inhale you argue my point. ;)
Those are all directly and heavily influenced by all regimes in general, aside from the one-child policy which might be regarded as an authoritiarian policy. Shit economy making people not want kids works the same both in democracies and in authoritarian countries (in fact, the latter might even dampen the negative psychological effects upon the population through propaganda).
[The shitpost formerly here is a good reminder to not Lemmy when too drunk. Know your limits]
It must be fun when you just make up what the other person said and call them names over that. You homophobe.
[The shitpost formerly here is a good reminder to not Lemmy when too drunk. Know your limits]
Children in China have better lives than those in the US.
And you’re mad about it.
Good thing they made actual unions illegal in the Workers’ Paradise ™️.
Whenever I see that, I love to remind people, than Tienanmen Protesta were (partly) against China pivot from communism to capitalism - this article summarizes it nicely: https://jacobin.com/2019/06/tiananmen-square-worker-organization-socialist-democracy
Anything to help people that want to have children is good.
nah, disagree. not anything.
Given how overpopulated the planet is, I’m not a fan
It’s the planet’s own fault for allowing life in the first place
I mean there is only one planet we know of that has life, why shouldn’t it be infested with it
That seems somewhat unfair towards people with other interests who aren’t being subsidized.
Sadly, when it comes down to it, children are necessary for society to function long-term. They are the people who will be financing and effecting your retirement, at least in a well-functioning society. I think it is a sound policy to make sure people can have children without any unnecessary suffering, there’s plenty of necessary suffering in there already.
Nah, human fucking can’t be stopped but even if 99% of the human race was sterile for a geneation the earth would still have more humans left on it than the vast majority of recorded history.
Modern nations should be supporting population declines.
Sadly, when it comes down to it, children are necessary for society to function long-term.
It shouldn’t be sad, this is basic reality. We should love kids and want kids and pressure our own countries to make it easier to have families.
I am really getting worried that the left broadly is turning soft anti-natalist and there is no faster way to end your movement than by not having more people. I feel like “birth rates” and “fertility” are terms that we feel have been co-opted by the right because figures like Elon Musk and the manosphere bros.
How many humans should we aim to have, long term? 20 billion? 50 billion? We’re already on track to reach 10 billion in the next 25 years.
I believe that as a society, we should have a long-term plan and a goal for our species’s population count, because simply offering incentives for continued growth in order to continue funding generational gaps in our pyramid scheme of social welfare is untenable. Ultimately we will reach the logistical capacity of a functional welfare state, to say nothing of all the other problems.
We probably won’t ever hit 11 billion contiguous humans. At least not without colonizing Venus. The birthrates worldwide are dropping quickly, and every time another country passes through the Industrial Age, into the Modern Age, their birthrates fall off a cliff. I suspect we will eventually stabilize around 9 billion people, which is a few billion lower than the maximum projected sustainable population of The Earth.
How many humans should we aim to have, long term? 20 billion? 50 billion?
That’s not what this issue is about, this isn’t “pro-growth” this is about averting economic and logistical collapse across much of the developed world.
Sure, we could do with a reduced population, but it needs to be reduced slowly enough that we don’t see mass casualties and so that our infrastructure, production and logistics aren’t suddenly unmanned, or many, many people will suffer.
We have to understand that the argument for continued population upkeep is about stability not some desire to perpetually increase population. There’s not a sharp, two-sided binary here, the problem is that many, many people in the developed world are having either no kids or not enough to keep up with expected decline and longer lifespans. When we run out of young people to run our cities, our roads, our offices and our shipyards and rail systems, we end up with collapse.
Look into South Korea for a vision of the worst case and think about what will happen broadly when the same syndrome hits other major world powers and logistical hubs.
I think you’re missing the forest for the trees. Continuing to fixate on short-term problems like bridging a generational gap—which incidentally we’ve survived many times in anthropological history—by continuing policies with long-term ramifications is not a good plan.
At some point we need to come to terms with the fact that continuous population growth is not tenable. Whether the population cap is 10 billion or 100 billion, the fact of the matter is that we will eventually hit it. We can’t keep procrastinating because we’re unwilling to resolve the challenges you’ve mentioned in a more effective manner.
Call me an optimist, but if we’re unable to change our habits as a species, perhaps a well-needed revolution will kick us into action.
You and people who raise this notion are all for rapid depopulation when you aren’t imagining it’s you dealing with the impact of billions of people not having enough resources. It sounds a bit entitled.
China is thinking long-term and practical. If they lose their young work-force it won’t matter what those “other people” are doing or not.
Someone in China told me once that one of the biggest differences between China and Europe/USA is that in the west we think in terms of years or decades. In China they are making plans for the next several centuries.
This isn’t a glowing endorsement of the heinous shit China has done, but it should at least make you understand that this isn’t a social welfare program designed to help families as much as the first of many measures to fight the forces that are eroding the power and production capability of other countries. If you want to see how bad it can get, look into what the future holds for South Korea.
years or decades.
Let’s face it, in neoliberal democracies we barely think past the next quarter. Next election cycle at the most!
I would love a government with a long term outlook rather than one that is concerned only with getting re-elected or failing that getting a cushy job with one of their “donors” after they leave office
I agree with this in the basis of the thought. But depending on the social security in various countries there are groups that abuse this help. So I’m hoping that loopholes are plugged at the same time.
That kind of thinking is what stops the US from implementing any kind of decent social programs. If your first concern is ppl taking advantage of it you’re not really concerned with helping ppl
Yeah, when I support a social program, it’s with the knowledge and acceptance that some abuse will occur. It’s just that I think, despite the abuse, the upside is still a superior outcome to not doing it at all. Maybe one day we’ll rebuild the cultural fabric to the point where people don’t feel so desperate they immediately exploit any crack in the system regardless of the risks or long-term outcomes. With changes in culture and wealth distribution worldwide, I believe global prosperity is absolutely possible.
I can’t imagine welfare of any kind is more abused than the process by which the US government farms things out to private companies. If the poor are suckling at the teet of the welfare cow, then private industry is the wolf ripping it’s head off. Just look at the clusters of contractors that show up like flies on shit any time the money faucet is opened.
Yeah, I want my neighbors to have heat in the winter, food when they lose their job, and universal childcare. If I have to pay a few extra bucks a year for that it’s better than pouring it into the rest of the money-holes in Washington DC.
OP mentions being from another country. I don’t have a ton of experience with countries commonly regarded as corrupt, though I did go to Nigeria once; money flows >>differently<< there. But there’s also a stronger social fabric. I don’t know if I could vote for any tax when there is suck a blatant track record of shady dealings (though it’s arguable we’ve all been doing that). It was fascinating and I hope to go back some day.
I’m not from the US… Not by far. Where I’m from many people abuse the system by having an exorbitant amount of children (10+), get free kindergarten care, extra money, don’t work, don’t contribute to society, steal, cause issues, etc.
Are you familiar with the term “anecdote”?
This policy that would help hundreds of millions of people could potentially be abused by thousands!
It might help someone I don’t like!
Those who advocate means testing deserve nothing at all
How could you abuse this? If I have a child and get my medical costs covered, I don’t get any additional benefits if I ditch the child.
Good. Can’t wait to beat this drum to hopefully shame the less than useless US congress to do ANYTHING.
BUT.
AT.
WHAT.
COST!
It’s like if 200 million of China workforce were gig workers or something.
does this apply if one of the parents was not chinese?
The solution is to pay workers enough so that the government doesn’t need to shift the burden of paying for children to those who don’t even have any.
As always, the money needs to come from the people at the top. As always, privatize the gains and socialize the losses.
That doesn’t make any sense.
Paying workers more is fine, but you’re saying that the costs for reproduction should come from parents, and then you’re saying they should come from the rich. People without children should contribute to childcare costs, and they are incentivized to do so, too, because children are important to pretty much everything. By having the government fund childcare, the rich do contribute more.
Whatever you said is inconsistent.
I don’t know, it makes a lot of sense, in an asinine way. Many people are self-centered and incredibly selfish. Of course we all benefit from living in a world where children are happy, fed, cared for, and well adjusted. But for folks without kids, it’s usually indirect, rather than direct benefits, making it harder to quantify.
But, their property taxes that fund schools are easy to quantify, so the selfish get grumpy about it.
It’s like not wanting your tax dollars to fund cancer research, because you don’t have cancer. It makes no sense, until you remember the person talking is a selfish dunce.
The solution is to pay workers enough so that the government doesn’t need to shift the burden of paying for children to those who don’t even have any.
I know you’re banned, and this comment tells me a lot about why that probably happened without me having to dig through the mod history.
This is some pro-capitalism slop even if you think it’s so far left it has tank treads. This is a surefire tactic to put a nation’s healthcare in the same situation the US is in now. Without a total reform of the entire economic foundation of a country, you are simply NOT fucking getting a government who will tax their wealthy to keep up with whatever the healthcare system is charging for their procedures.
This is why healthcare is more complicated than lopping off the heads of the elites and spreading that money. We have to make systems that ensure no single person or institution is left on the hook for figuring out what to charge or pay.
edit: the comment gets worse the more I reread it.
doesn’t need to shift the burden of paying for children to those who don’t even have any
This is the very fundamental principle of having healthcare, whether it’s private or public, it’s very expensive and resource-intensive to keep people broadly alive and healthy, you absolutely cannot start deciding who gets this funding and who doesn’t deserve it if you want a fair system, and it feels like everyone (people like you) really get bent out of shape about this right up until YOU are the special case who needs society to pool our resources to help you with your stupid problem. Then suddenly the “social contract” that made you so mad previously seems like a pretty good idea. FFS I am so fed up with narrow-minded children weighing in on shit they have no understanding of.
Everyone has been born so everyone should have had a free birth. I do agree that workers need better pay but certain expenses should be handled by the government only. It’s not gonna properly optimize itself by supply and demand when we as a society benefit in more children.
I take it they removed the two child limit?
Yes , back in 2021.
They don’t have universal healthcare?
Also DYK China now has a 3 child policy. Maximum, that is.
The only thing that’s free in the people’s hospital is walking in the door.
But it is all very cheap, I got an xray, ultrasound, and consult for like 15 USD. Cuba seems to have a better model regarding healthcare.
Good to know. Sounds like token pricing to prevent abuse.
Its not quite that cheap, remember that wages here are much lower. OTC meds are often more expensive than in America, and TCM is sold alongside actual medicine
Even quadruple that it’s still token. More and it’s still cheap.
TCM?
Traditional Chinese Medicine. It comes in pillboxes that look exactly like actual medicine, but then you translate the ingredients and it has like bear bile and shit.
no… they canceled that, and now want you to pop out as many slaves as possible
no… they canceled that
This shit is so easy to check before you click “reply” I have no idea why we can’t be asked to spend several seconds on a basic google search before spilling whatever is on our mind. You can hate China for whatever reasons, but let’s not share factually incorrect information.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-child_policy
edit: why am I not at all surprised your mod history is filled with hate towards Asian people.
They removed the fines, so it’s a decriminalization, which is practically just legalizing having as many kids as you want.
no that was in 2021. they removed it now… and literally want you to pop out as many labour slaves as possible:
btw I would upvote you if you were right, but no they removed the 3-children cap. Also btw im not anti china, and actually all my political and humanright views have bias favoring african and asian countries… and especially 3rd world and developing countries. so sorry i dont know what comment i left that made you get that wrong about me
I think I’m going to trust the reporting from actual people in China over someone who’s moderation comment I can fucking SEE so don’t pretend shit around me. I will never see your stupid comments again.
what’s comment moderation? how can I see it for each user?
regarding the subject. your sources are better if you rely on people from china. though all online resources say those three-child restrictions have been ignored:
https://www.chinalegalexperts.com/news/how-many-kids-can-you-have-in-china
so you’re right about what the official law is thats all.
If they’re are covered, why or how are they out of pocket?
