I respect people’s right to use apple products, but please stop asserting “privacy”, big corps doesn’t give a shit.
I hate the term sideloading. It’s a made-up propaganda word to make it seem scary or wrong to install software on your device. All in the name of corporate profits.
Yea, who are google and apple to tell us what to do with OUR devices that WE OWN anyways?
I will never buy a smartphone(or a computer) that I can’t replace the stock OS on, because the transaction for me and the device maker should end when I buy their device, period.
The entire business model of selling me a device only to then extract the maximum possible amount of data points, sell that data to fuck-knows-who(compromising my privacy, and possibly safety), and maximizing targeted ads to attempt to manipulate me is beyond absurd.
It’s like “jaywalking” oooh oh no don’t “jay” walk, don’t “side” load; conform to our business machines! Your natural existence and free movements are an inconvenience to us therefore you have to change.
Or whatever bullshit–however they couch it.
“Warning: If you unlock your phone, it might explode or you might become a terrorist. Also we won’t pay your money back even if there is faulty hardware because there is non zero chance you might have caused it while unlocking”
I like the term sideloading. It describes an installation method we don’t otherwise have a word for.
I’m loading a software package from the side – from a system running parallel to the target system.
I do hate the use of the term to try to demonize a completely standard practice. Like when using wget to request files from a fileserver was described as hacking.
Apple does give a shit about privacy… in the same way that companies care about gay pride. Right now privacy is still a selling point for Apple compared to other companies. This is why they are still so loud about on device AI and pretty much silent when any of their features require cloud processing. But am under no illusions that will remain the case forever.
As far as “dumb phones” are concerned; they don’t exist anymore. It’s still a device with an OS, GPS (as required by the law that created the Amber Alert here in the US), and an Internet connection, that makes calls using VoLTE or similar. Most of the ones you can buy today run things like KaiOS which has an App Store and comes with Google Maps preinstalled.
If you want real privacy you need to disconnect from the Internet which pretty much means no phones at all now that everything is VoIP.
Mostly agree except about disconnecting from the internet, classic SMS/voice calls aren’t any more private than VoIP.
Your best bet for location privacy is E2E encrypted services like Signal over wifi, plus MAC randomization and a VPN on untrusted networks. I’d say GrapheneOS is good enough for most people, but mobile Linux has also come a long way.
Encryption doesn’t stop them from knowing what tower you are attached to. Simply having a phone on you even with the GPS and WiFi off (or with the newer phones even the whole phone off) would still be enough to get your location to within a few hundred feet. The original iPhone used triangulation exclusively for location.
There is no word called sideloding it’s called installing software
“Sideloading” means “defeating a walled garden to install software”
Yeah, you can go with a Linux phone but forget about:
- controlling any IOT device
- using any smart watch/sport trakcer
- Android Auto or any remote car features
- mobile banking
- authenticating at work
- buying public transport tickets from your phone
- using apps for boarding pass when flying
- charging your car at most public chargers
- using any type of digital ID or documents
If you’re already a luddite that’s awesome, you’re free to move to Linux phones. If you like modern tech and the convenience it gave us it will be really fucking sad to lose all of it because or corporate greed.
Agreed, but is a chicken and egg problem. People won’t use Linux because the apps they want don’t support it and apps won’t support it because most people don’t use Linux. Someone will have to cave in if we want to break this stupid proprietary duopoly.
The best way is freeing Android. Android should be the “Mobile Linux”. What should happen is that EU should ensure that people are allowed to side load and unlock bootloaders and that all apps are compatible with alternative ROMs. All dependencies on google play services should simply be made illegal and all apps should be fully compatible with AOSP.
If we can’t get this we will spend the next 10-15 years in mobile dark ages. Mobile Linux may never get enough tracking to be supported the way desktop Linux is.
I don’t think it’ll play out that way. Manufacturers aren’t going to ditch Google. Play Store and Google certification are too valuable for them. And for small developers, most of them rely on Google’s infrastructure. If the EU decides to take that away, only big players with resources could handle their own systems, which ironically makes things less open because indies get squeezed out.
If we skip the Play Services part, the EU might push for sideloading and more openness, but realistically Play Services will remain dominant simply because it’s the easiest and most convenient option for developers. So we’ll probably end up with a halfway solution: technically more open, but practically still dependent on Google.
If we really want change, proper GNU/Linux phones need to catch up or at least run Android apps (APKs) reliably. That alone would solve 70% of the problem. The remaining 30% comes down to infrastructure and right now Google Play Services is just too polished and convenient (especially for indies who don’t care about FOSS ideals) for devs to walk away from.
I will admit I’m ignorant here. What do companies use Google Play Services for? I developed some Android app and I never had to rely on Google. I just used F-Droid. Other than play store for distribution, which services provided by Google would be so hard to replace?
I used to run an LTE-enabled nettop instead of a phone during the app-only craze, can’t get any worse than that. Recently removed bank apps, taxi, delivery, maps, youtube, email and all social media apps off my phone in favour of using websites instead. They’re still a bit of an afterthought compared to apps so the experience is a bit clunky, but the option is available for most things nowadays.
Some things yes. I don’t have any social media apps (not even lemmy) or YT but my car charger requires an app, my AC has an app I use from time to time, my Garmin GPS has an app, I have to use MS Authenticator at work, my car has an app and Android Auto and 90% of public car charges require an app. None of this has website alternative. Can I live without them? Well, not without work obviously and where I live electric car infrastructure is so tied to mobile phones I’m seriously considering just giving up and going back to a normal car.
Don’t they have functioning Android app support now?
In theory yes but most non open source apps require google play services. Hard to tell how long those will work with waydroid and similar. Also running android apps this ways destroys battery apparently.
Most of this i don’t use my phone for anyway. I’ll use my current android phone for the rest, if needed.
Still going to wait and see if the Eu makes a move, but i won’t go back to fascist enabling corps.
Yeah, sadly I don’t see a way around it other than having spare Android/iOS phone.
For some time GrapheneOS should work just fine but when Google kills it we’re fucked.
It’s really funny seeing people who defend capitalism trying to avoid capitalism problems with individual actions instead of organizing themselves and fighting for the interest of their own class
Thia guy i know to a tee. He’ll defend capitalism to the death and say how the left is evil and anarchy capitalism is the only way.
Idiot. And he pitches about everything in life capitalism causes. I point this out and he says well yeah but thats just bad capitalism not good capitalism. Also he loves fElon, so there’s that.
Comparatively they are better. Its a duopoly in terms of mobile OSs and one is made by a company who mines data and sells ads as its core. The other sells hardware and subscriptions.
I use linux and I wish for a full featured marketable linux phone someday that can compete but with privacy they absolutely beat google.
I have never owned an iphone amd I am currently debating on getting a pixel to move to gOS.
I’m all for linux, I miss the market before iPhone domination. Weird ass symbian phones, windows phones, nokia taco phones, there was all sorts of stuff. I wish we could have a market like that with lots of diverse phones that all run different operating systems. I also wish we could step away from app stores and we could just start building websites again, phones are fast enough now
you can make your point without ableism, you know
also, has anyone (at least here on lemmy) said “well at least apple cares about privacy!!”? the most ive seen is “apple is less atrocious with privacy than google”, which is demonstrably true (tho if you care about maximum privacy, using an iphone is obviously not a good idea)
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Google: app developers use the zygote loading system to create an everpresent preloaded bedroom on your device with access to whatever they want in sensor hardware access and monitoring. It is essentially like a full equivalent computer user in parallel. This is how it just works while the (exploited-mark) human user is ignorant about operating systems, networking, and security. They have full equivalent access because you do not understand the details. Again these are full equivalent users. They are likely intimately preset with you more than any other partner… If they are there for stalkerware digital slavery, to sell your digital person for exploitation and manipulation, such a transaction is much like prostitution. The motivations of developers that are not whoring people out are mostly benevolent, altruistic, or taking a stand to support liberal democratic freedom. So in essence google is a digital slaver running a loose coalition of independent developer pimps that collectively enslave your digital person for manipulation and exploitation.
Apple: is a central fascist neo feudal lord that centralizes the exploitation and slavery under a single market forum where they directly manipulate and extort every developer and slave. Apple is the stalkerware data salver selling the exact same data to manipulate and extort users just like google.
The difference has been an open market free for all of privateer piracy raiding the coast of Africa to fuel the Southern plantations and flying the Jolly Roger of google, versus the matrix growing humans in a vast vat field with the Jolly Roger of Apple on the side of the buildings. To call one different than the other in terms of privacy is a joke as sour as US politics represents a balanced spectrum of interests. It is all stalkerware data slavery ownership of a part of an individual’s physical person for exploitation and manipulation. Open Source software is the last bastion fortress of real citizens in a democracy fighting off zombie pirates flying a Jolly Roger. This is a choice between Apple vanishing people and Google abducting them from the fortress.
ROMs are the red pill, a revolver, and a place to stay for fightimg for freedom from the 21st century digital slavery phase of neo fascism, and its coming total war 3.
Does anyone remember r/hailcorporate and its brief moment of fame before the popular subs banned mention of it and its own mods started running a crypto scam?
Yeah I find it hilarious that anyone thinks apple cares about privacy. They clearly have been cultivating that image but it rings pretty hollow to me. They just chose something that would be easy to say they care about that an ad company clearly also doesn’t care about.
Hardware really needs to be opened. So many issues are caused by people being unable to get away from large company control due to them beinf the only ones able to get decent hardware.
The Librem 5 is a Linux phone and already has open board design files, available here.
And it sucks last I heard. And the hardware is very outdated. I wish Ubuntu would try again.
If we wish to change the status quo yet ignore the ones actively challenging it, what are we left with? I can almost guarantee you that a Canonical-produced phone would certainly progress mobile Linux but would not be released as OSHW.
And it sucks last I heard.
I’ve been using one as my daily-driver since March 2023. It’s not a phone for everyone; I wouldn’t recommend it to my parents, but it doesn’t suck as long as you are not expecting feature parity with flagship proprietary options in a trillion-dollar market. Bugs get squashed over time, and there is power in numbers. Even the iPhone started out somewhere.
And the hardware is very outdated.
I’m sure that Purism would appreciate ideas you may have for an OSHW/FOSS-friendly processor unencumbered by NDA, that’s well-documented, has long-term market availability, doesn’t take half the real estate of the L5’s PCB, would allow more than 2 hr of runtime, that… you get the idea. Available processor options are limited if the device should be even remotely open. Spinning one from scratch is prohibitively expensive.
The fact that there are only two operating systems and both are locked down is a major problem. Unless a company like Valve invests heavily in a linux phone it is unlikely to ever go mainstream enough for developer or device support.
We need governments and legislators to force these systems open. To enshrine the right to control the things you own and criminalize any attempt to curb people’s ownership or control. That is the first step. Once that’s in place, the environment for a third option to exist will be in place.
There are more than these 2, they are just ubiquitous.
Sailfish is another one, UBPorts, Danctnix, … They have no marketshare worth considering for companies so they lock their services down to the 2 big ones and everything else in their eyes is “unsupported” at best and “not secure” at worst.
What a weird strawman
Google literally copied this from Apple.
First of all: writing this from my iPhone. I’ve been on various android phones, including flashed to Sailfish and alternative ROMs, and I kinda hate being on an iPhone now. But - it works.
Look at the incentives of Google and Apple. Google sells ads. That’s it. Any operation at Google other than that is just a small side hustle. Apple sells hardware and 30% commission on apps/media. Apple’s incentives to fuck over the privacy of individuals is far smaller than Google’s incentives. That’s it.
Let’s go through the list:
- Android vendors (Samsung et. al): Zero incentive to not sell you out. Also, no recurring revenue throughout device lifetime (except selling your data), so zero incentives to provide more than absolutely minimal software support after sale.
- Open Source ROMs: All the incentive, but zero funding or business model. Continually fighting against Google. Thus, not really an option for ”normal” people. I won’t hand my mother a flashed phone, and she won’t be able to flash one on her own.
- Sailfish: Had incentives and a business model. When I used it, the developers could barely keep the web browser patched. Tell me that’s good for privacy.
- Apple: Has incentives to patch and update older phones (recurring revenues from AppStore and iCloud), and doesn’t really sell any ads themselves.
Apple are anti-consumer assholes with a clear objective of creating lock-in under the guise of ”privacy” and ”security”, and they really want to force people into buying more hardware. Agreed. But they are the only major phone vendor that doesn’t have incentives to actively screw you over.
Is a flashed ROM ”better” for ”privacy”? Probably. Should you get your mother an iPhone? Yes.
Both Tim and Pinchai paid Donald Trump money to attend his inauguration and lick his ass on a daily basis. They both have one very big incentive to invade their user’s privacy: American fascism.
Yes. It would be nice if the Americans got their shit together.
Meanwhile, what phone should my mother buy in a store?
Someone else already said it. Old style flip phone. Can text and make calls; can’t serve ads or collect any more data than your contact list.
Yeah, but my mom can’t do banking on a flip phone.
This is the issue. Everything sucks. Don’t complain that people make a determination to take the least fucky normal option instead of flashing privacy ROM of the week onto an old Nokia N95. Be happy they thought about privacy it at all.
You can’t participate in normal society without a smartphone. There are two options for normal people. Pick the least shitty one.
You don’t need a phone to do banking.
Don’t be facetious. Granny has a landline for calling - this is about a phone as we mean it today; a smartphone if you insist. Or how else is granny going to operate Netflix or whatever other service is only convenient on phones where they are?
You don’t need a phone for any of that.
Do you actually not know of any services that are only convenient with a smartphone or are you just being annoying?
Apple: Has incentives to patch and update older phones (recurring revenues from AppStore and iCloud), and doesn’t really sell any ads themselves.
Don’t fall for Apple PR, they sell you out like everyone else does: https://ads.apple.com/
Of course they do.
But they have recurring revenue streams other than just ads, unlike the Android vendors. Meaning - they probably won’t fuck me over as hard as Google.
Edit: also, note that the ads they sell via your link are on their own platform, i.e. within their own ecosystem. The revenue here is most likely peanuts compared to the AppStore commissions.
Linux Phone with waydroid is the way
Probably excellent. Can my mother buy it over the shelf, in a store?
If not, what’s the best alternative currently available over the shelf, in a physical brick and mortar store, for my mother?
Mothers use iPhones anyways. For now iPhone might be okay but someday it will start to suck so hard that you can’t stand using it, just like what’s happening to Windows. That’s why we need to consider start using Linux phones so your mother can ditch iPhone for it.
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