• SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world
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      10 days ago

      A perfectly designed test - ambiguous enough that anyone subjected to it can be failed.

      I still don’t know what #11 is “supposed” to be.

      • THB@lemmy.world
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        9 days ago

        Can anyone explain #1 to me? What are you supposed to circle? It says “the number or the letter”. There’s 1 number and the entire sentence is literally letters…

        It’s like when the waiter asks “Soup or salad?” and you say “Yes”.

      • taiyang@lemmy.world
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        9 days ago

        You got enough answers but here’s how you deny someone the right to vote: the question really means you need to make the number 1000000 exact as that is the number “below” the question. Not fewer, physically below.

          • ricecake@sh.itjust.works
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            9 days ago

            Four. You need to make the number below (less than) one million, so cross out zeros until it’s 100,000.
            ”0000000” isn’t a properly formatted number.

            It’s a fun game finding the ways you can tell someone whatever they said is wrong.

        • TheFogan@programming.dev
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          10 days ago

          I mean purely pedantic, I have no idea the original test writers… but based on how I read the words

          The number (one singular number needs to be crossed out)

          Below one million, IE number < 1,000,000

          So my conclusion

          10000000000 < 1,000,000

          • ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works
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            9 days ago

            There is more than one right answer, which means there’s always a wrong answer to disqualify the target of prejudice from voting.

        • Apepollo11@lemmy.world
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          9 days ago

          Ah, but they can get you because a bunch of zeros isn’t “a number”.

          You could cross out the first 1000000… leaving just the last zero, though.

    • TheFogan@programming.dev
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      10 days ago

      Also worth pointing out, WHY the test is so bad… 1. obviously not even well educated people today can agree on the meaning of a good portion of the questions.

      but the biggest thing is, not everyone had to take them… IE the key point intention was “if a parent or grandparent has ever voted, you can skip this test”. which is such a blatant giving away that they don’t care of an individuals knowledge, they aren’t actually worried if they can read, they were just keeping first generation voters from voting… at a time when in particular a specific subset of american’s were in position to be first generation voters.

      • ricecake@sh.itjust.works
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        9 days ago

        Nope. The answer to number ten is ‘a’.

        Assuming you went with “last”, but that starts with ‘l’, not ‘L’. Each other question also specifies “one this line” where relevant, but not this one. The first word starting with ‘L’ is “Louisiana”.

        The trick of the test is that it’s subjective to the person grading it. I could have also told you that the line drawing one (12) was wrong by just saying it’s not the correct way to do it. Or that 11 was wrong because you didn’t make the number below one million, it’s equal to one million. Or if you crossed off one more zero I’d say you could have gotten fewer by crossing off the 1 at the start. Or that a long string of zeros isn’t a properly formatted number.

      • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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        9 days ago

        Number 11 says, “cross out the number,” as in, only one number. Pretty sure you have to cross out “1” so that it’s just a bunch of zeros.

      • TAG@lemmy.world
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        8 days ago

        You do not get to vote. You drew a curve for question 12 when the instructions specified a line.

  • abbiistabbii@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    9 days ago

    If voting needed an exam, they would use that exam to stop certain demographics from voting. And no, I’m not talking about the ignorant.

    • bestagon@lemmy.world
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      9 days ago

      They used to do this and it turned out exactly how you describe. I would probably also add it’d incentivize politicians to dismantle educational institutions serving certain demographics

    • apftwb@lemmy.world
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      9 days ago

      Surely there are no examples in American history that voting eligibility exams were used to stop certain demographics from voting.

  • JackbyDev@programming.dev
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    8 days ago

    Fuck no. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_test

    Between the 1850s and 1960s, literacy tests were used as an effective tool for disenfranchising African Americans in the Southern United States. Literacy tests were typically administered by white clerks who could pass or fail a person at their discretion based on race. Illiterate whites were often permitted to vote without taking these literacy tests because of grandfather clauses written into legislation.

  • eluvatar@programming.dev
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    9 days ago

    Who determines the questions and answers? Now they are the ones determining who can vote and thus the people in control.

      • Sarmyth@lemmy.world
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        9 days ago

        No. Its just another tool used to be racist and reduce minority votes.

        We dont have to guess or assume. It already happened and thats what it was for.

        Its not a better system. If you want to pretend though… you can at most say its the same.

        • Tattorack@lemmy.world
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          9 days ago

          Not even close. And I find it racist of you to assume that a minority is somehow incapable of passing an exam.

          • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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            9 days ago

            You obviously don’t know the history of voting tests. In the US, tests were designed to be virtually impossible for anyone to pass, but white voters didn’t have to take them, because the rule was you didn’t have to take the test if your grandparents could vote. They were implemented in a racist way.

            You want to trust the government to design and implement tests, that sort of thing is what it could easily lead to, whether you want it or not.

            • Tattorack@lemmy.world
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              9 days ago

              Yes I’m well aware of Jim Crowe laws. Before you can enact something fair you’re first going to burn down everything you have currently.

              The systems you have right now are a dead end, and there is no way to manage or change that system from the outside. So first it must be destroyed.

          • JackbyDev@programming.dev
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            8 days ago

            And I find it racist of you to assume that a minority is somehow incapable of passing an exam.

            I’m begging you to please read this Wikipedia article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_test

            Between the 1850s and 1960s, literacy tests were used as an effective tool for disenfranchising African Americans in the Southern United States. Literacy tests were typically administered by white clerks who could pass or fail a person at their discretion based on race. Illiterate whites were often permitted to vote without taking these literacy tests because of grandfather clauses written into legislation.

            Other countries, notably Australia, as part of its White Australia policy, and South Africa adopted literacy tests either to exclude certain racialized groups from voting or to prevent them from immigrating to the country.

            Video showing one of the actual tests from the Jim Crow era. https://youtu.be/6lor3sfk-BE

          • RagingRobot@lemmy.world
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            8 days ago

            No in the past black people here in America weren’t allowed to be educated or learn to read. When they gained voting rights none of them knew how to read well so the racist made a law saying you have to pass a reading test or some shit so they couldn’t vote.

            You can’t just look at the current situation and make rules based on that you have to look at it wholeistically. Not being able to read doesn’t mean you are stupid. There are lots of reasons someone might fail a test but still be intelligent enough to vote and make a good informed choice.

            • Semester3383@lemmy.world
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              8 days ago

              When they gained voting rights none of them knew how to read well so the racist made a law saying you have to pass a reading test or some shit so they couldn’t vote.

              Not correct. Literacy tests weren’t testing actual reading ability and comprehension; they were explicitly intended to deny the right to vote. White people would be passed because they had grandparents that had been permitted to vote, and literally got grandfathered in. Non-white people would be given tests written in, for instance, latin. So even if they could read, the odds were very poor that they’d be able to read the language the test was in. Or they would be given tests that had very ambiguous questions, and any way they answered could be considered ‘wrong’.

          • Captain Aggravated@sh.itjust.works
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            9 days ago

            Extremely close, because it’s happened before.

            Literacy tests at the polls were used as a tool to keep black people from voting, often by handing them different, harder tests.

            • Tattorack@lemmy.world
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              9 days ago

              Then don’t do that.

              Give everyone, and I mean everyone, a standard fifth grade test. It would not surprise me one bit if the highest failure rate of such a test comes from the large swath of redneck nitwits there exist over in America.

              • Zron@lemmy.world
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                8 days ago

                Who writes the test?

                Who determines the test is at a fifth grade level?

                Who will proctor the test?

                Where will the test be administered?

                When will the test be administered?

                Who decides what a passing grade is?

                Who grades the test?

                Who verifies the grade on the test?

                At every step there is an easy way to disenfranchise whatever people you don’t like. For instance: simply make the test only available at noon on the Monday before election. Make it only able to be taken at town hall. Immediately, anyone who works an hourly job will no be effectively disqualified from voting because they can’t take the test.

                Now make the exam only available in English. Anyone who cannot speak English is now disqualified.

                There are so many ways for literacy tests to go wrong, they’re pretty much only good for excluding people you don’t like from voting. Just let everyone vote and make it a mandatory holiday.

          • abigscaryhobo@lemmy.world
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            9 days ago

            The problem is barriers to entry. There are certain things like voting that should have bare minimum entry requirements. (Proof of ID, lack of felony charges) Because once you put in any requirement (like education level etc.) those requirements can be manipulated by bad actors. We already have low voter turnout in the US as it is, and people already try to challenge that in bad faith (looking at all the “stolen election” bs in 2021).

            Putting requirements like education is just begging people to manipulate it and skew results (harder tests in some areas, obtuse questions, general “elitist” focused motivations)

            The point is voting needs to be accessible to everyone, even if some of those people are “not smart enough” then we need to focus on educating those people, not stopping them from voting because of some arbitrary “good enough” line.

          • jj4211@lemmy.world
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            8 days ago

            You can design the exam to the purpose, and race isn’t even the only factor to worry about. Maybe they claim a voter needs to prove financial literacy with advanced questions about various investment options that aren’t relevant to the lower class.

          • Octavio@lemmy.world
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            8 days ago

            The white guy test: spell dog.

            The black guy test: prove the Riemann Hypothesis.

            See the problem yet?

  • ✺roguetrick✺@lemmy.world
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    9 days ago

    Sure. Disenfranchise most people. That’s a suitable hack to a
    checks notes
    stable, legitimate, and responsive government.

    Even China would have more political legitimacy than such a system. It would collapse almost immediately.

    If you ever want a good example of functionalist ideas leading to absolutely uncritical nonsense, here it is.

    • Ptsf@lemmy.world
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      9 days ago

      Not saying this is the correct route, but I do see the cultural decay, foreign influence, and complete lack of civic duty causing massive political failures in the US in real-time as we grow lazier, less interested, and more content. Any idea how we account for that in a reasonable fashion?

      • ✺roguetrick✺@lemmy.world
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        9 days ago

        The problem is looking at it too functionally. You cannot fix it by “fixing” voting as if voting magically creates a functional government. It’s a method to derive consensus. You cannot look at a system that is failing to produce consensus and then fix it by directly removing anything that increases consensus. That’s insane.

        You need to critically look at the entire system and identify what the problem is. In this case it’s largely the abstraction layers. People now interact with their government through filters even greater than the old Hearst days. Information flows from media filters to the population and from the population to government through social media filters. And both of those filters have their own agendas. Of course nobody believes the resulting government is responsive or legitimate. It’s not.

        There are many potential solutions for civic engagement. But that largely means breaking down the very walls that powerful interests have created. There’s no easy solution to it. Certainly not “let’s make these stupid people unable to vote.” A solution is much more radical and takes understanding both what you want to achieve and how the current system is preventing it.

        • Ptsf@lemmy.world
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          9 days ago

          Fair and reasonable. I just don’t see a large force that would lead the current us in that direction naturally, and if I did I feel like I’d have more hope for a stable tomorrow.

      • ricecake@sh.itjust.works
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        9 days ago

        You don’t. People have always said that about basically every country. What is “cultural decay”? Define “civic duty”. Why is it a problem that people are content? Are we lazier? Are people on average more content now?

        The key lesson is that you can’t force people to care about what you do. Inspire people and they’ll follow you, don’t and they’ll do something else. FDR increased a sense of civic duty by paying people to do civic works.

        • Ptsf@lemmy.world
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          9 days ago

          I think I might’ve come across incorrectly when I said cultural decay. I mean to convey the consequences of a cultures effect on politics. For example wars, pollution, or nuclear weapons. I think you’d have trouble denying those have effects that are inherently social and require civic cooperation to prevent. Doing otherwise seems to me to actually objectively be a problem, assuming you value living. That’s actually what I meant about laziness as well, that we’re less invested in the core responsibilities that now exist with how advanced our technology and societies have become.

          I agree you can’t force anyone, that’s not freedom, but I also feel and fear we may be past the point where inspiration can handle the challenges. FDR never had nuclear war looming, the interconnected and chaotic nature of social media to contend with, or a bevy of other modern factors like llms that I get the gut feeling are insurmontable. I’d like to be convinced otherwise instead of subscribing to apathy but I feel like I’m living through the dawn of a new age.

          • ricecake@sh.itjust.works
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            8 days ago

            I’m glad it was a misunderstanding. :)

            I think my central point still holds, so I’ll develop on it a bit more.
            Every era has its challenges, and they’re all seemingly insurmountable and possibly the worst thing yet. They’re less significant from our perspective, but we have the benefit of history. We know how the story progressed.
            FDR did have nuclear war looming, they just only knew that meant “bad”, but not the details. It was probably scarier then. We know now that he actually didn’t because the German program was doomed to failure from the start, but they didn’t at the time. They had an economy that was in tatters, a massive food shortage resulting in poorly quantified starvation, the most powerful militaries on the planet conquering Europe and Asia, and so on.
            We’re past the age where the president is likely to be able to inspire unity of purpose like they did then, but that’s always been how you get people to care: someone needs to convince them, or you pay them. In a time if turmoil, you can inspire a lot of purpose by giving people a stable job, and then constantly extolling the virtues of the purpose they’re working towards.

            All that to say, we don’t know the future. You are living through the dawn of a new age. Our problems aren’t insurmountable, we just don’t know how to do it yet. The details are different, but it’s not a new circumstance.
            I’m not an advocate for apathy, but… If it does go wrong, what actually happens? America collapses, war, people die, and turmoil. We can’t know the timeline, and we have 3/4 of those now with the remaining being pretty intangible. The fall of the Roman empire, depending on which fall you’re looking at, took 300 to a 1000 years. To the people living through the fall, it wasn’t even visible. The final fall ushered in the Renaissance, both a period of great development, but also pessimism born out of the proceeding centuries of turmoil (European peace shattered by 200 years of war, famine, several plagues, and an ice age). Injecting masses of fleeing scholars from Constantinople into that propelled things to new heights as their knowledge from the fallen empire blended with the local knowledge.
            We don’t know if the empire is falling, how long it’s going to take, if we’re at the beginning or the end, or if we’re even in the empire. We don’t know if the collapse will trigger a dark age (not actually dark, just “not roman”), or a golden age as waves of American scientists, artists, writers, mathematicians and engineers take their work to China and unintentionally create a fresh blend of perspectives and shared knowledge that builds on both. (Stereotypes aside we have a lot of those).

            People problems are ultimately solvable by people, inevitably by talking.
            History consistently tells us that it’s weird, messy, and long. Live life, be kind. If someone says to do something for other people for moral reasons, it’s a coin toss if they’re doing something history will look kindly upon. If someone says to do something for group identity, they’re probably fine. If they say to do something to someone else for group identity, they’re most likely not. If someone is saying something you’ve heard before but a lot of people are listening and the people in power don’t like it, thiniare probably shifting. Maybe not for the people speaking, but shifting.

            It’s late and I’m rambling as I fall asleep. When I say “you don’t”, I mean that history and society are too much to bend in a deliberate way. Best you can do is the right thing at the time as best you can and not worry too much about your role in the big picture. So few people have a role that sets them at the bend of those forces.

            Also, I’m not too worried about LLMs and social media, fundamentally. People have been saying and believing bizarre shit forever, they just made it easier and faster. The fading lustre of the Internet is just a drift back a bit towards before it, when people just believed stuff and then no one ever corrected them.

  • ExLisperA
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    9 days ago

    Nah, the exams wouldn’t be mandatory for everyone. You have a degree? Exempt. You graduated from one of the “certified” high schools (the ones in white neighborhoods but we don’t call it that wink wink)? Exempt. Passed NRA shooting license exam? Exempt.

  • chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    9 days ago

    the main function of the contemporary media: to convey the message that even if you’re clever enough to have figured out that it’s all a cynical power game, the rest of America is a ridiculous pack of sheep.

    This is the trap.

    -David Graeber, The Democracy Project

  • I Cast Fist@programming.dev
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    8 days ago

    Brazil had something like that in the early republic days, only literate people could vote. Needless to say, only the robber baron elites kept getting elected, also thanks to the significant amount of fraud that happened. “The election is won during the counting”

    • JcbAzPx@lemmy.world
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      8 days ago

      I don’t know about a fine, but it should be more effort to not vote than to vote. That way the people who are determined not to vote still have an out that doesn’t involve violence.

      • Mniot@programming.dev
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        8 days ago

        Continue to allow blank-ballot to be a legal vote (as it is today). Nobody has to vote if they don’t want, and now if you’re trying to do a protest-abstain it actually gets noticed.

  • Plebcouncilman@sh.itjust.works
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    10 days ago

    The founding fathers basically solved this issue through the electoral college, you’re not supposed to be voting for the president, you’re supposed to be voting for the people who will elect the president. But that’s all gone to shit, proving Hamilton’s warnings about populism extremely prescient.