Didn’t really expect much from DrivingUk but honestly the amount of downvotes shocked me. God forbid people go out at night dressed normally without full on high vis.
Reddit Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/drivingUK/comments/1r8fkfo/comment/o65j18p/
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Wear Something reflective when it’s dark if you value your life
This is ingrained into kids since they are 3 years old in Norway
Finland here, third gen professional driver, dad had “Gentleman of the Road” taped to the back of his taxi-van. You couldn’t find a more patient driver (unless he was driving us to a bus and we’re running late or if the liquor store was closing.)
No matter how carefully you drive, human brains just can not pick out a dark thing that’s practically stationary against another dark thing when you’re in a vehicle moving >50kmh.
And our kids walk to the school by themselves if it’s less than 3km iirc, and lots of those roads don’t have sidewalks. Lots do, most probably, but in rural areas not every road has a sidewalk. And it’s dark most of the year.
So you really get taught to wear at least a small reflector. It’s not because of inconsiderate car-brained drivers. It’s because humans don’t have HD thermal vision that keeps perfectly up at high speeds.
This video might illustrate it better. (Pun intended.)
Someone with a reflector can be spotted roughly 150m away, whereas some one without one from about 40 meters. Going 60km/h you travel 40m in 2.5 seconds. The average reaction time for general road users is put around 1.5s. Leaving you a whopping one second (1s) to slam your breaks, and even then you won’t make a meaningful difference. Whereas the driver seeing someone with a reflector has almost 10 seconds, leaving them with 8.5 to reduce speed and dodge the pedestrian a bit.
So while I don’t own a car, but an ebike, and take public transport and am against car-brained culture, in this instance it’s you demanding everyone in countries with long winters spend all of their driving time driving about as fast as one can run, in order to have enough reaction time to avoid pedestrians without reflectors. And I think you understand that while we all dream of better public transport and less car-brain, in this instance wearing a tiny reflector you literally get for free from most places (my bus pass holder is one, for instance, because hauling hailing down buses is a lot more effective with a reflector than a dark mitten) can’t be such a bother. Also you can just take it off when you get to where your going and pocket it if it so bothers you.
Also, what about pets?
Most pets nowadays here have either reflective “clothing” or leashes/bands with small leds. And a lot of the time you just spot a dog in a reflective harness and perhaps a leash hanging in midair until you see the person.
Yeah. And cars aren’t the only ones driving around at night. You got Public transport too. So don’t blame cars
And not just for the humans using the road either.
##Glittering antlers to improve road safety
Employees at Finland’s Reindeer Herders’ Association are testing two different reflective sprays on reindeer’s antlers as a means to make the animals more visible to motorists on Lapland’s dark roads.
As someone from Sweden. Where the dark night is very long in the winter. Do wear a reflective strap or something so cars can see you…
Wearing all black in the middle of the night and crossing the road is not a fantastic idea. I would not expect a car to see me until it’s too late. Don’t be an idiot. Make sure you can be seen.
Sincerely. Someone that bikes more than they drive a car
It’s good advice. But when it’s coming from drivers it comes of as shifting responsibility to VRUs, or victim blaming.
Drivers have responsibilities too. Pay attention to the road, get off your phone, drive at slower speed if you can’t see what’s in front of you.
Yes. They do have responsibilities. But how can you expect anyone to stop for something they can’t see?
This advice is coming from a pedestrian. Wear your reflective patch. Snap one over your arm, have one hanging out of your pocket, pin it to your coat. Whatever. Just have something on you so you can be seen if you’ll be around traffic.
There’s two sides to this really. A failing on two fronts.
First off, the idiot driving should be paying more attention. You have lights, and I doubt the pedestrian is wearing a vantage black jumpsuit with the hoodie pulled up.
Secondly, pedestrians should be paying attention in general. It’s not a carbrain response to say “you should be paying attention to your surroundings” it’s just common sense. Would you cross train tracks without making sure a train isn’t crossing? Would you hope a bus is going to stop on a dime for you?
Both need to smarten the fuck up.
The driving infrastructure is in place and it’s hostile to pedestrians (and many others). People can act all smug about what should and shouldn’t be all the way into the grave.
We can either take reasonable steps and vote in parties who’ll improve the infrastructure or we can take unreasonable steps such as tactical urbanism where we dig pot holes and leave shit on the road to deter drivers.
I walk early in the morning wearing all black. I am aware that I’m effectively invisible to cars. I drive too. That’s neither of our faults so I make efforts not to be hit by cars. Cars have been told that they’re allowed to drive at a given speed (60km/h) and have no reason to expect to lookout for my black clad arse on the road.
Ya’ll don’t have to reason with drcake here you can just call them an idiot and move on. Be better next time!
Deer, raccoons, and the billion animals killed every year should also do more to be visible.
Or you know… just snap on one of these on your arm when you go out in the dark. Or have something similar dangling out of your coat pocket.
And before I’m accused of anything. I bike and walk far more than I drive.
To me this is defending motonormativity.
I also walk and bike at night, sometimes on multiuse paths with pedestrians, dog walkers and cyclists. Dogs don’t have lights and are sometimes unpredictable. You know what I do when I’m cycling on a shared path, instead of expecting everyone to flash like a christmas tree? I slow down! This way I can react before hitting a pedestrian or a dog. I’m the one going much faster than them. I’m the one that has to be careful.
Once I nearly got hit by a truck passing me on a countryside road. It was day time but it was also raining. I was wearing a bright orange t-shirt. But apparently I wasn’t visible enough?! In all the cases. I’m sure it was my fault for existing and not taking all the necessary precautions to make sure I can be seen from space and avoid getting hit.
I don’t carry reflective hardware and flashing lights with me just in case I have to walk somewhere in the dark. Sometimes I’m walking a few km in my sister’s town in the dark or in the rain. Sometimes I’m walking in another city, or country. I’m not carrying “safety equipment” with me everywhere I go just because some idiot motorists wants to go the speed limit in the dark without regard to other road users, or animals. Whatever happens, it will always be my fault for being there outside of a car anyway. Did I have headphones on? Maybe I was wearing dark makeup? I came out of nowhere! Or maybe I was not walking or cycling at the right place or at the right time.
Motorists are the one that drive a multi ton lethal vehicle, sometimes in the dark, and everyone not in one is expected to take precautions against them.
Motonormativity.
EDIT: Wear reflective gear if you want to. It’s not a bad idea. But it SHOULD NOT be expected.
Alright buddy, you do you. I’m quite content with a small reflective star hanging out of my pocket at night. It’s not an inconvenience, and I’m happy that cars can see me in the dark from a long distance away.
And don’t go blame the dog. You’re the one holding the leash. There are dog collars with reflective material in the collar BTW.
I don’t know where you live, I can’t speak for that, but I live in Sweden. It’s pretty dark during winter. We get 6-7 hours of sunlight over the winter solstice.
Here, It is expected that you make sure you can be seen. That doesn’t mean you need to walk around in a hi-vis vest.
This is more a problem of city design than driver behaviour. Even when conscientious cars slow down to better perceive on streets designed for higher speeds assholes will pull dangerous maneuvers splitting attention and becoming more dangerous to pedestrians to get around conscientious drivers in the interest of getting to their destination at their expected time creating new and less predictable hazards.
For the meantime until this is systemically fixed it can be rolling the dice to step out during peak times of light transition like pre dawn or twilight dusk wearing particular shades of clothing. It is not strictly “carbrained” to take precautionary measures in a hostile system any more than it is “paranoid” to bring safety gear to a backwoods hike. You adapt for the environment you’re in not the one you hope to have.
Until real civic engagement creates better infrastructure and stricter limits for vehicles it is not victim blaming to say it’s a safety hazard or to treat it like we’re talking about rape. If you can’t be seen at the speed traffic that is tacitly endorsed by enforcement and culturally expected to move it isn’t directly someone’s choice to hit you. There is no selection process as they actively trying not to hit you and frankly I believe it weakens the argument to draw that comparison.
I’m going to go against the groupthink here.
If I’m driving at night I sometimes come across people wearing specifically dark clothing walking in the street or crossing in poorly illuminated areas, seemly unaware of the cars.
I too, wish we lived in a less car centric society, and I know if I hit them it’s my fault. But wearing all black and walking in poorly illuminated streets unaware of traffic is profoundly stupid.
Im not saying they have to don hi-vis, but the all back is certainly a choice.
Part of the problem is many winter coats and a pair of jeans will look all black at night. Couple that with high speeds, poor lighting, and parked cars blocking sightlines and the problem gets hard to blame one specific factor. IMO its mostly a roadway design problem but it is an unfortunate reality that you have be very alert at night and assume every car cannot see you.
Certainly I don’t think the onus is on the pedestrian to solve to overall problem, which exists because of the things you point out. I’m only saying the pedestrian is responsible for their own safety.
A line I’ve used before is “It won’t be your fault, but it will be your problem.”
Pedestrians should be able to walk on the roads. It should be down to cars to not hit them. However, when they screw up. The car owner has a dented car, you have shatter bones and organs.
It’s against the grain here, but my personal view is that all school kits should be given a family size pack of high Vis strap vests and taught the risks. It’s amazing how effective an educated 8 year old can be at changing behaviours.
My 6 year old big sister convinced my mother that my father lighting up in the house on the way outside to smoke was not okay and then convinced my father that smoking was bad enough to quit, even if it really was only every one or two pipes a week
I grew up in the far north, winters were very long and very dark. Every kids jacket had prominent reflective materials.
I still look for that when I get a winter jacket.
I agree with you 100%. As a motorcycle rider and pedestrian/runner, I am all too aware that even if you are in the right as to your personal choices - it will suuuuuck to be unseen from someone piloting a larger vehicle. Responsibility doesn’t solely fall on the pedestrian in this instance - but why wouldn’t someone at a disadvantage want to up their visibility? Had a bicyclist the other night on an unlit Street wearing all black and no lights or reflectors on their bicycle. 25mph zone but two way narrow in-town street. I only knew they was there because the car in front of me crossed the double yellow - and looking in the rear view, had pulled off to the side but was next to invisible…
Being dark isn’t a choice. People, dogs, cats, birds, etc are born that way.
Even clothing sometimes isn’t a choice. It’s pretty common in work attire to require black shoes and slacks. Formal attire also leans dark.
Formal wear doesn’t include helmets, yet we still expect people to put on a helmet if they get on a bike.
We shouldn’t though. The responsibility should fall on those who create the danger to manage it responsibly.
I do wear a helmet but if someone chooses not to that’s their business and it’s not their fault if someone else injures or kills them any more than it would be if you failed to wear body armor while walking in a dangerous neighborhood.
I wear a helmet while biking. It’s saved me from a head injury once so far, in an accident that had nothing to do with being hit by a car.
I don’t think it should be legally required, though, because avoiding discouraging people from cycling at all is more important for safety and health in aggregate.
(I was riding along at relatively low speed, looking up at some scenery, and hit the longitudinal edge of a cockeyed metal plate in the road in just the wrong way such that it pushed my wheel sideways and made me fall over.)
Yeah I support helmet wearing. I just don’t think we should blame people for bad things that other people do to them just because they chose not to.
Comes down to if you want to assign blame or prevent it from happening to you.
Yes, if you’re riding without a helmet and hit by a car, the car is (probably) still at fault. But if your primary concern is avoiding brain damage, you wear a helmet.
You’ve chosen hyperbole in your hypothetical in a dangerous neighborhood. More to the point is wearing an expensive watch while in a dangerous neighborhood. If you’re rolled and the watch stolen, it’s the fault of the thief. But maybe a better idea to put the Rolex in your pocket when downtown after dark.
I think my analogy is way more similar than yours.
Make your own decisions about how you keep yourself safe. But once you start victim blaming, expect criticism.
Nope. We’re talking basic common sense precautions. Not “body armor.”
“Common sense” stems from the cultural context. Which in this case is carbrained.
Most other countries do not consider a helmet a necessity for riding a bike.
Most places with functional, safe bike lanes will have most people riding without helmets because accidents are quite rare.
Riding a bike without a helmet is profoundly stupid.
The entirety of The Netherlands vs this person
Even if safety reflectors become widely adopted- let’s suppose that workers leaving the office at 5pm put one on, clubbers at midnight have them, whatever - then won’t motorists come to expect to see them? And if they hit someone, people might say, “Well, she wasn’t wearing safety reflectors - what do you expect?”
Well shit I guess I need to go get a fuschia tracksuit for my night walks. A whole different set of drivers can harass me for a new reason.
Sorry safety interferes with your fashion choices.
I suppose sarcasm isn’t a great way to get through to someone who’s tone deaf.
But sure you really gave all of us black-on-black serial midnight car dodgers something to chew on, we had never thought about how visibility affects our safety ever before. First time.
IMO it’s fine to wear dark, but be aware that drivers will have a harder time seeing you and you should be careful crossing the street.
Just don’t cross a road without looking and you should be good.
Fuck off. Email or call your city council member and advocate for better pedestrian infrastructure. Do it, right now.
I live in the Netherlands. We have excellent pedestrian infrastructure, I can safely walk anywhere.
We also raise our kids explaining them to always look both ways, to never suddenly cross the road and never to assume a driver has actually seen you. It’s basic road safety, you so the same for crossing a bicycle path or railroad tracks.
It’s an insult to tell someone to look before crossing the street in a fuckcars comm. Like no shit. Why do you think we’re all in here. It’s really frustrating because accounting for the externalities of cars is the normative state of being for us, nobody is in here to fool themselves about that fact, we’re here because of it. At least I am. I’m not really down in this thread to entertain the myth of the bumbling jay as some sage counter-argument. It’s not.
Both can be true.
It can (and is) true that we need better pedestrian infrastructure. Or more to the point, less car-centric infrastructure.
But it can (and is) also true that a pedestrian should take basic safety precautions when around dangerous things. He should likewise look both ways before crossing a bike path (infrastructure we support) and shouldn’t cross train tracks (also infrastructure we support) when the train is coming.
We live largely in a world that caters to cars. I hope that can change. But that doesn’t absolve personal safety responsibility.
The OP on Reddit literally admits they didn’t look at the crossing in their post lol and this is what we’re focusing on? In the fuck cars community? Watch the video. There’s no way that would have played out any differently even in broad daylight. And no amount of vigilance would have helped that pedestrian.
When I go running around my neighborhood at night I actually do wear hi-vis, I don’t even run on the street. People just suck at paying attention in general.
To be fair i live in a rural area that has few sidewalks or street lights. If someone is walking along the side of the street in dark clothing it is extremely difficult to see them. I am not justifying not paying attention just clarifying my stance.
Literally “look at what she was wearing. She was asking for it!”
Obviously, it’s a good idea to look out for giant hulking death machines when your environment is crawling with them. That in no way means the blame should be focused on the victims of the death machines. Fucking car brains.
Also I just watched the video and I would be very surprised if that situation would have been any different even in broad daylight. Cars regularly make turns like that without looking for pedestrians at all. The OP even admits that they didn’t look properly at the crossing in the post.
There are quite a few posts here that echo my thoughts on this but I think that many of them also miss the mark. I think that we need to take a step back. There isn’t one thing to blame or a single thing that is at fault.
Most of us live in places designed for motorised traffic. That’s an unfortunate fact. And because of that we have certain responsibilities, like being mindful of cars and traffic in general. I think that we can all agree crossing a high-speed road with your eyes closed is a terrible idea, no matter what you’re wearing.
However, I also think that divers have certain responsibilities manoeuvring a tonne or so of steel at high speeds in the direct vicinity of people and property. And speaking from experience, most people aren’t aware of the inherent dangers of that, or simply don’t care about them. Going over the speed limit and running stop signs are considered normal and I’ve been called out before for not driving aggressively enough.
Road design also plays an important role in general road safety. Most places I’ve been to have frankly terrible road design that favours motorised traffic above all. Pedestrians being the most vulnerable road users should be protected and kept safe, just like people cycling and other road users. However, with road design being as it is, that burden is shifted onto the drivers themselves.
Yet people seem to forget that one shouldn’t be booking it around corners if one can’t see what’s on the other side. For all they know there could be a literal brick wall waiting for them. The same goes for narrow urban streets. Drivers should lower their speed and be just as mindful of other traffic, like pedestrians have to be. And yes, I know that that doesn’t work in the real world, as people are selfish. That’s why we need to tackle these issues together, as a civilised society.
One last thing: I don’t like that we’re hating on particular groups of people. People will act like they do, no matter if they’re driving a car, riding a bike or if they’re just walking down the road. In the end we’re just people and we shouldn’t see a pedestrian as a lesser person just because they’re choosing to walk; or the other way around for that matter. At the end of the day we all just want to get home.
With all of that said: stay safe out there!
This is a terrible take. Sure, you can walk in all black. You can be hit by a car that does’t see you. You can be right and still dead or maimed. Win?
Cars exist. You bear some responsibility for your own safety as a pedestrian. Heck, I was driving home one night and a person did this exact thing, all dark clothes and long dark hair facing away from me stepping off the curb with opposite direction traffic putting headlights in my face. Saw them literally last second as they finally decided to look in the direction of the traffic flow they were stepping into. Awful decision making. Luckily I got stopped just as they simultaneously realized it was a shitty idea step in front of a car. Yeah, cars suck and are dangerous. Act like it and save yourself some grief.
Happened to me couple of weeks ago. It was late, I was wearing dark clothes but I was in a pedestrian area and the crossing was well illuminated. I start crossing and I see a car heading my way on the second lane. He slams though the speed bump without touching brakes, I stop knowing that he doesn’t see me or doesn’t care, he notices me and breaks suddenly. Then he rolls down the window and says “I didn’t see you”. Fucking idiot.
In my opinion, if you’re driving though a crossing in a pedestrian area it’s up to you to make sure it’s free. It’s like driving though a sidewalk. If your going too fast to see if someone is walking you have to slow down. It’s “I only go when I’m sure I can”, not “I go unless I notice I can’t”. I’m not going to wear a reflective west everyone I go because some guy likes to drive fast and has poor night vision.
Sounds like someone wants the freedom but not the responsibility that comes with it.
“The shrewd one conceals himself from the danger, but the stupid one keeps on going and suffers the consequences.”
Just because you have the freedom to wear all black clothing at night doesn’t absolve you of the responsibility you have to avoid the danger that can end your life.
Fuck Reddit and Fuck Spez.
I’m not saying that people shouldn’t take care when walking, especially crossing roads, I think that goes without saying. My issue is that that just by wearing black the blame seems to fully shift to the pedestrian when it’s also on drivers to take more care when driving at night. Again, don’t take this as me saying it’s fully on the driver, you still don’t want to just set out and expect them to stop, basic safety applies daytime and night.
I had an incident where I was almost hit by a car and was wearing light coloured jeans, white shoes, and a cream coloured jacket. Pretty light clothes, but the driver still said she didn’t see me. Now I could wear full hi vis, reflectors, hell even a helmet, but to me that seems overkill for a simple night out in town.
Yeah, the idea of policing pedestrian outfits irks me. You don’t need a license to walk. You don’t need training, or to pass a test. There are no regulations written about what equipment a person must wear out in public to avoid collisions.
Operating a motor vehicle does come with those rules and responsibilities. Including headlights!
Besides, a lot of winter coats are mostly available in dark colours. They are fashionable, practical, and show stains less. Is someone supposed to buy an expensive second coat for walking around at night in? Stash a high-vis vest in their purse for when night falls at 5pm, and they are still out, on their way home from work?
When I have these discussions in-person, sometimes they say, “Oh but when they dash out across the middle of a highway and they’re wearing all black, even headlights don’t help!” Well, of course if they are suddenly darting across the road, crossing mid-block, of course that’s dangerous! It wouldn’t be okay if they were wearing a suit of glowsticks! There are rules against “jaywalking,” but not against wearing navy blue!
