Politicians from those countries are under enormous Public Opinion pressure to “do something” to Stop Israel (for example, in Britain 500 THOUSAND people demonstrated against the Genocide).
So the politicians in power do the most innefective “something” imaginable.
The simplest most surperficial reading of this is: see, they did “something” and even if small “it’s a step forward” - you see a lot of posters here doing that reading.
An analysis with even just the tiniest bit of depth yields the possibility that, by choosing to do the least effective thing they could do now, they’re diffusing some of that Public Opinion pressure thus delaying the time when the pressure is so big they have to do something that actually hurts Israel, like Sanctions.
If that is the case, then this action is in fact negative rather than merely meaningless or “a small step forward”, because it gives Israel more time to exterminate Palestinians and steal more of their land - it means more deaths rather than fewer and a worse future (as more of them get dispossessed) rather than a better one.
Given that all these countries are still sending weapons to Israel, and the UK - which was the initiator of all this - is even running surveillance flights over Gaza and giving the info to Israel, it seems to me that the “it’s a delaying action to give room for Israel to take their Final Solution further” explanation is far more likely than the idea that this is being done with a genuine intent of helping Palestinians.
Can’t they just nuke Israel?
That would count as doing something
Still better than Trump smearing the blood of dead Palestinian civilians all over his face as a cheap replacement for his normal clown makeup
Comparing the height of an ant to the width of a hair becomes rather meaningless when you’re trying to get through the second-storey window of a burning building. What you have given is the lowest possible bar, as the person they’re supposedly better than is actively suborning genocide.
While the US directly supplies weapons, funding, and openly encourages escalation against Palestine, while we threaten and extort these countries from recognizing Palestinian statehood, you claim no discernable difference between these two stances. Maybe a timeless god would see things your way but here in this shitty reality this is about as stark as the contrast gets outside of the Middle East.
“There is no difference between any two things, you imbecile, you simple rube” is a very popular position that allows you to both appear smarter than everyone and also never change your mental state on anything
All of the ones in this cartoon are still sending weapons to Israel and the UK specifically is still flying surveillance flights over Gaza and giving the info to Israel as well as arresting old ladies as Terrorist Supporters when they demonstrate against this Genocide.
This action of theirs now is 100% performative and not just has zero effective impact on the suffering of Palestinians but possibly even has negative impact if it reduces the pressure of the Public Opinion in those countries to stop Israel and thus delays actual effective and meaningful action.
Some of the nations in this, most noteably the Brits have a policy towards the Israeli Genocide which is basically the US plus an extra thick layer of hypocrisy.
Don’t confuse the difference in façades for a difference in intention.
I don’t disagree that there is a difference, but setting the bar at “isn’t actively saying, with public, official statements, that they support the extermination of the native population of Palestine” is just too low a bar for me. As I’ve said in another comment here, from my perspective, this is nothing but a bunch of bullies who’ve been kicking some kid, and now that one of the bullies has clearly done permanent damage, they’re all saying “hey bro, it’s just a joke, bro, are you okay, bro?” Not even trying to stop the other two bullies who are still actively curb-stomping the kid.
As the comic implies, it just seems like a publicity stunt, because doing this now doesn’t appear to have any actual value any longer, because I don’t see how recognising a government-in-exile is going to meaningfully help any part of the plight of the Palestinian people. This just seems like a pragmatic thing that they think will drum up public support, while not requiring them to actually do anything, because they know that any actual enforcement of international law against the war criminals would require the US’ cooperation, so they’re “safe” to make these too-little-too-late declarations of “support”.
I really don’t see the point this is trying to make. Like, would it be better if they didn’t recognize it at all?
Imagine if someone punched you over and over again in the face and said, “Sorry, I’ll stop.” You’d be happy that they’d stopped, but you wouldn’t like them or forget, especially because their friend is still currently punching you in the face.
This, except their friend is actually shooting your starving children, then bombing the hospital they’re being kept in.
It is RATHER FUCKING LATE. Sure, let’s put together anti-poaching laws for the White Rhino after it’s already extinct in the wild! Now, let’s find other ways to do precisely nothing of any meaningful value while being able to claim moral superiority and that “at least we eventually did something”. Now that the complete obliteration of any meaningful civilisation in the vast majority of occupied Palestine has been completed, and after god-knows-how-many thousands have died of starvation or just being shot like rabid dogs while trying to take the mangled bodies of their children to a hospital, or daring to try to pick up food. Recognising a state which is in exile is precisely as useful to actual Palestinian people as just watching and shrugging your shoulders. It’s just an attempt at performative retroactive unfucking.
We all know it’s fucking late, but it makes little sense to complain when someone is finally doing the right thing.
Better late than never.In case my point was unclear, this is no longer “them doing the right thing”. What, precisely, do you believe is the benefit of this action to the Palestinian people? This is a great way of drumming up public support without actually having to do anything. Is there actually any commitment here to action? Is there actually any real cost to doing this? Have these countries ceased funding Israel? Have they stepped up aid? Are they even acknowledging that it is a genocide?
Perhaps I am wrong, but I don’t think I am. This is nothing but a publicity stunt, and until it’s backed up by real action, I refuse to perceive this as “doing the right thing”. This is nothing but a bunch of bullies who’ve been kicking some kid, and now that one of the bullies has clearly done permanent damage, they’re all saying “hey bro, it’s just a joke, bro, are you okay, bro?” Not even stopping the other two bullies who are still actively curb-stomping the kid. No. I don’t see this as “the right thing”.
You are making an argument from ignorance.
First of all, this is something Palestine has wanted for many decades. So finally doing it is absolutely something the Palestinians want.What, precisely, do you believe is the benefit of this action to the Palestinian people
It marks that the occupation of Palestine by Israel is illegal, making new settlements are illegal.
In short it basically defines almost everything Israel does as illegal and unacceptable by every nation that recognize a Palestinian state.This is a clear message to Israel that they do NOT have the support of those countries, and their actions are regarded as illegal under international law.
Most likely there will be follow ups to this, that legally depended on this recognition to begin with.It is also i signal to other countries, that helping Israel oppressing and committing war crimes in Palestine is not acceptable under international law.
Don’t let perfect stand in the way of progress.
As someone who is under the godforsaken Nazi regime of MAGA, I have rapidly come to terms with the fact that “illegal” things are only illegal if there is a force willing to enforce the law being broken. Is there such a force? I have heard nothing of it. Please suggest who, exactly, you think is going to actually enforce sanction and punishments for this “illegality”. If these declarations do, indeed, have the force of international law behind them, and represent a commitment by these countries to enforce these wondrous and miraculous laws they’ve been actively ignoring up until this point, then I shall immediately cede the point.
As far as “argument from ignorance” is concerned, I would appreciate some elaboration. Saying “Talk is cheap” is not an argument from ignorance.
You are actually doing it again. The argument from ignorance is that just because you don’t see (are ignorant about) the advantage of this, you claim there is no advantage, when in fact there are clear advantages.
With regard to enforcement that is usually a mix of individual countries and the international community, possibly decided in FN, much like we’ve seen with Iran.
You are living in a lawless country, and USA is not an ally in this regard anymore, but many other countries are actually trying to maintain and uphold international law.
Trump might even get in on it it too, if he thinks it helps his image.Personally I consider USA a lost cause now, and I have little interest in their policies that mostly consist of shooting themselves in the foot, and let China become the de facto international leader, as USA is stepping down and even sabotaging their former allies on their way down.
I understand why you are pessimistic, I would be too if I lived in USA.
I am not saying “there can be no advantage”. At every turn, I was asking you to explain the advantage which, let’s be clear, you have been attempting to do in good faith. I just want to understand more about whether this international law is actually enforceable in any meaningful time frame. Saying “I don’t see how this helps them in any meaningful way. Do you have some explanation that shows that it does?” is not an argument from ignorance, it is literally asking to be proven wrong. I am desperately trying to see literally anything other than a calculated move of realpolitik with the sole aim of getting their citizens to stop speaking out against their complicity in genocide.
What complaining? It’s a political cartoon. It’s not saying they shouldn’t have done something late. It’s just a reminder that they didn’t do anything earlier.
Thaaaaat’s the negative reinforcement that’ll ensure they never change their stance next time.
That is the goal, right?
You’re so right, because the “positive reinforcement” of “let’s make up for doing nothing about the Holocaust by letting Zionists do a bit of colonialist mass murder as a treat and recognising their state” has gone just so well these last eighty years. </s>
If recognising a government in exile is the best you can do in the face of an active genocide that YOU HELPED FUND, then NO, better to do nothing and JUST. STOP. DOING. THE. GENOCIDE.
It’s saying that recognizing Palestine is how you begin to wash the blood off.
They’ve recognised it and that’s it. No behaviour has changed as far as I know. I’m pretty sure we (Canada) are still selling weapons to Israel. What does it matter if we officially recognise Palestine as a country if we are still sending weapons to destroy it?
Yes, that seems to be the point. Remember last year when the Palestine “supporters” were constantly spamming that the best way to end the genocide would be to let Trump be elected? A lot of the people who’ve latched onto the Palestinian cause don’t actually want to help anyone, they just want an excuse to hurt even more people.
You can see the water underneath their hands is red as if blood is being washed off. To me that indicates the message of the cartoon is this is how you start to clean your hands. Note they still aren’t clean, but it’s a start
They figure the job’s close enough to done that they can flip to the “right side of history” without affecting the outcome
It’s been clearly photoshopped. There was something else instead of France. You should really respect the original author’s work
Why is France written in Comic Sans?
Because OOP intended these to be sets of 2 hands therefore 1 country per two. OP added France.
Some people will complain they’re catching flak for doing the right thing. That’s why nobody does it etc.
But that’s the point. If you’re really honest with yourself you take your licks and own up for what you did wrong. People are gonna give you a hard time for it.
The alternative is not doing it.
Seems like whether anyone does it or not, its all wrong.
Better than refusing to recognize Palestine.
Not in the eyes of a lot of people on Lemmy.
It’s setting the stage. It doesn’t do much on it’s own but if you recognize them as a state rather than just some people it gives leverage to use more diplomatic tools.
How much difference will it actually make? No idea.
You’re letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Should they take no positive steps?
Imagine someone robs your house, causes untold damage, takes all your valuables and shoots your wife, your child, and your dog.
The robbers voluntarily give back the clock you had on the mantelpiece and $20, claiming they feel bad. You get nothing else but those things. The clock is blood-spattered and cracked. But hey, that $20 counts for something, right?
Would you rather they kept it?
This is frankly baffling. Nobody is saying this should be the only thing to be done. Just that it’s a good thing. Is it not a good thing?
If everything from my house was stolen but I was given a tiny useless token back, no, no that isn’t better than getting nothing at all.
I’m not saying it’s not a good thing, I’m implying how much of a good thing it is.
Would you rather not get anything because it’s not good enough?? you’re literally letting perfect be in the way of good
If it avoids them suffering consequences for the original theft, thus leading them to the same con again and again and again because they always win from it, it’s actually a bad thing.
That’s an additional caveat that isn’t included either with the analogy itself or with the actual recognition of Palestine.
The evaluation of the merits of something doesn’t stop at its obvious direct effects.
I mean, if that was the case, me pissing on the punch bowl in a party would be a good thing because it had the immediate, direct and positive effect of me not feeling the need to piss anymore.
I know that its one of most common political swindles in our era to totally and utterly ignore secondary effects and broader impact of a political choice in order to sell us something which all things considered is a bad thing as being a good thing because at the surface it looks positive, but let’s not accept them treating most people as having the intellectual capability of 5-year-olds as a good and normal thing which everybody should do and which we should adapt to by not considering more things about a choice than we did at the age of 5.
The problem here is that the discussion was about whether X was a good thing, and then after a bunch of argument against it finally someone pops in with “because it leads to thing Y!”
- That wasn’t addressed at all until now.
- It remains an unsupported connection.
- Even if true, thing X is still in itself a good thing.
Recognizing the existence of the state of Palestine is a good thing for everyone except the racist Zionists who want an ethnically pure unified Israel in its place. I feel like I’m taking crazy pills here.
In a magical special Universe where nothing else at all was happenning, recognizing the existence of the state of Palestine is always a good thing.
In the actual world were are in, with what’s going on right now, for some countries (were there is a large public pressure to actually stop Israel and which are still activelly arming Israel) politicians recognizing the existence of the state of Palestine is possibly a bad thing because of how it interacts with other things to de facto yield worse outcomes for Palestinians than if they had not done it.
Interpreting the merits of a choice in a context were there is nothing else whatsoever that interacts with it - call it “laboratory conditions” - is pure Philosophy and akin to claim that “we all live in a perfect simulation but are not aware of it”: a fun mental game that has no actual effect in Reality as we perceive it.
“Out, damned spot! … What, will these hands ne’er be clean?”
What’s with the arm for France? It’s clearly labeled in a different way than everything else in the picture.
Hmm, good point. Odd.
Better than Denmark waiting for: All the hostages returned, Hamas completely out of power, and all weapons gone from Palestinians. I.e. for the genocide to be completed.
Recognition of a Palestinian state can only be meaningful if it includes a 2 state solution where Palestine and Israel swap their current claims to land and infrastructure.
