“Out
sidoor cats” shouldn’t be a thing, imo.Edit: didn’t realize I totally messed up the word, “outdoor”.
Can places still keep them for pest control? What’s wrong with an outdoor cat?
EDIT: It’s so weird getting downvoted for a genuine question. See y’all in the next thread about why isn’t Lemmy more popular.
They kill a lot of wildlife, which in many settings is not desirable.
Even if they don’t kill, say, a bird, a cat’s mouth and teeth are loaded with bacteria. It generally doesn’t harm humans that much, but birds and small mammals stand a good chance of dying from infection if they’re bitten or scratched up by a cat.
Here’s the often cited study from 2013 that estimates outdoor cats kill billions of birds and mammals annually in the US alone:
If there’s a setting where cats can survive and kill “wildlife”, I would push back against the use of the term “wildlife”, because in order for this to be true humans have eliminated most predator species in the “biome”. All I hear when people in a city say they don’t want feral cats is they want cute birds at their feeders.
In an area rural enough to have coyotes…feral cats can be a positive addition to the biome so you don’t get overrun by rodents. Birds don’t have to worry because the cats need to stay close to cover due to various predators.
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You didn’t say anything.
Feel free to engage with my reply.
I can translate for you!
But in this case, data exists, and you don’t need to be speculating about things you don’t know about.
translation: shut up
Someone pointing out logical fallacies is most definitely them saying something.
Unfortunately, often the willfully ignorant and those who live lifes free of logic cannot understand these words and decide they are meaningless.
They also tend to think people smart than them are dumber than them, but that’s often a defense mechanism over a paper thin ego.
Man, mind like an ocean indeed… Mostly empty, with a few bits of bacteria and just enough sentient meat to function.
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Seriously. People are claiming to be worried about biomes in the middle of a city where the only lawns allowed are grass and pavement and the town is bombed with bug killers every year and mice are dealt with by having them killed indiscriminately by pest control. It’s actually illegal in my city to plant edible plants on our forested parts because of some bullshit about drawing homeless populations.
But yeah the outdoor cats are the issue. That shit ain’t even close to the top on my triage.
I think I’ve read that they can really hurt the local wildlife as they’re excellent hunters. Also they poop in sandboxes and you can get really sick from it.
And cats hunt for fun, not just food.
Hunt for practice.
On a farm you pretty much need a cat or you’ll be overrun by mice.
What you call a pest, the ecosystem calls native wildlife. The “pest control” is what’s wrong.
It’s cruel to the cat. There is no shortage of outdoor hazards that can injure them or make them sick. It’s also very bad for biodiversity. Domestic cats alone are responsible for the endangerment and extinction of hundreds of species. There are other, better, more targeted ways to deal with pests. Do not keep your pets outside.
Your question suffered in part because another person was in the comments arguing that cats aren’t a problem. Sometimes, someone who is just asking questions appears alongside someone who is “Just Asking Questions” and being a total asshole about it.
100%, this would have happened on Reddit, too.
That argument is made by a particular group. It’s really important to include the context of when cats are “harmful” to the wildlife. It can only be in a setting where humans have completely modified the environment…**then** you create a scenario where cats become just another pest species. It should go without saying that when the anti cat people get all the feral cats eliminated…then many other pest species with a different set of problems come back. What it comes down to is which pest species you prefer.
Anyways…that’s all off topic because this post was about a cats being eating by coyotes….which are also both pest species. But from experience in a setting where you have pest weasels, raccoons, skunks, weasels, foxes, etc…it’s preferable to have cats…because if you don’t have enough coyotes a skunk is going to move under your house if you don’t have a cat. It’s all the weird version of the animal kingdom that humans create around us.
It can only be in a setting where humans have completely modified the environment…then you create a scenario where cats become just another pest species.
I’m not sure what you’re saying here. But, like most suburbs do in fact host some songbirds- especially during migration. Parks, wooded areas, etc. Cats don’t really care if it’s a suburban park or a shitty nature preserve that apartments maintain because they bought the land but it’s wetlands (and set it up as a sort of “we bait deer and racoons and shit
so your kids can catch rabies and other exciting diseasespet them.”There are very, very few places that humans haven’t modified in some way. and I’m not sure they even exist at all.
There’s peregrine falcons that hunt doves in downtown minneapolis (and they’re super fun to watch if you can catch them. Animals can and do adapt to humanity’s bullshit. feral cats are more of that bullshit.
Cats should absolutely not be let out. it’s not safe for the cat (Coyotes, owls. diseases. cars. Just getting stuck. and enviromental exposure.) and it’s not safe for other wildlife (songbirds, rodents. etc,)
Not a lot to disagree with here, except your conclusion is really out of place.
Those falcons don’t really hunt doves…they mostly hunt imported pigeons…and that’s not a unique thing…I live in Canada where we have far more exciting prey birds in every city.
Anyways. People in cities get really weird about focusing on things that really aren’t significant…this kind of reminds me of wind turbines killing birds. Sure…it’s true…but neither cats nor wind turbines could possibly threaten birds. What threatens birds more profoundly is driving a gas vehicular or subscribing to Netflix so you can watch a documentary about how evil cats are. Or…living in a city in the first place.
I could wax philosophical and wonder if it’s a general aversion to witnessing predation that makes people anti cat…but it’s probably just people who have bird feeders being really loud. Hope you win, and have fun with all the rats…another totally natural species lol.
Lots of claims from you in here about being personally fine with allowing invasives into your area, but is there any researched evidence for it?
I never said I was “personally fine with invasive species” you’re projecting.
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Someone gets it
Pretty much. To me it’s such a “boutique” opinion to get outraged about how dangerous cats are…without any context or consideration for the context in which cats exist in the first place.
Like…it’s akin to a first world problem…a bunch of people saw a documentary about cats, felt that they had some measure of power to deal with cats…and haven’t considered any of the major problems created by routines that they participate in that actually mean something.
Yes, cats are terrible. But killing all the owls (another commenter brought this up) and putting up all the bird feeders that gave the cats so much easy “prey” is also worth considering.
The weird thing is the OP is about cats getting killed by coyotes…who are a much more dangerous pest species (in the contexts that they’re eating cats) than the cats.
I’m definitely overthinking this…but my angle is I’m a rural person who has livestock and rodent problems. A much different scenario to somebody who lives in an apartment and got radicalized by some amateur birder who hates cats because they don’t want to leave the city to see birds
Your room-temperature IQ is showing.
Such nuance.
Such a lack of intelligence.
Insults are the perfect argument. You win.
You know that pigeons are a type of dove, right?
Sounds rather like you don’t know what you’re talking about and don’t actually have a real argument. Most predatorial birds will take whatever they can without being too picky about it.
Peregrine don’t care if you call it a rock dove or a pigeon, they’ll happily call it dinner. Same as they would any other kind of dove.
this kind of reminds me of wind turbines killing birds. Sure…it’s true…but neither cats nor wind turbines could possibly threaten birds. What threatens birds more profoundly is driving a gas vehicular or subscribing to Netflix so you can watch a documentary about how evil cats are. Or…living in a city in the first place.
Except that cats don’t reduce the overall ecological burden in the way that windmills likely do. That’s a complex topic and I’d say irrelevant.
I could wax philosophical and wonder if it’s a general aversion to witnessing predation that makes people anti cat…but it’s probably just people who have bird feeders being really loud. Hope you win, and have fun with all the rats…another totally natural species lol.
I rather doubt you can, actually. Seeing as your entire arguments so far have been whataboutisms and dismissive personal attacks. Uninspired ones at that.
I’m not anti cat so much as I am “anti-letting cats out.” But you seem to think that being “anti” is a bad thing. It’s not. It’s just semantics. I’m also “anti-letting rats run free” too; and for the same reasons.
Cats also don’t generally go after actual rats, either. They tend to go after mice and voles and other smaller (and safer,) rodents, so the “cats kill rats” isn’t really a good argument either. (Also small lizards, bugs and other smaller critters in general.)
There’s better ways to deal with rats that don’t affect native rodents (or other native wildlife) in the way cats do. And letting cats out to hunt is dangerous for the cat on several fronts.
My argument is you’re spending way too much energy thinking about outdoor cats, which are irrelevant to the larger argument of harm to the environment.
It’s a distraction from the problem that humans themselves pose to the environment…you’d get a lot more bang for your buck and the cat problem would take care of itself it if you were less materialistic, for example.
If you think you’re doing a goddamn thing by keeping your cat indoors, while at the same time running on the hamster wheel on consumerism…I have news for you.
How much energy I spend on something is irrelevant to this conversation. You’re welcome to walk away any time if you feel you’re spending too much.
My argument is simple:
- it is not safe for the cats.
- there are better, more effective, less expensive, and less impactful methods
- cats are harmful to the environment.
Your arguments are basically “nuhuh” and anti-consumerism screeds that belong elsewhere, and are rather a bit hypocritical considering you have to be engaging in some level of commerce just to be having this “conversation”
Noting you say about consumerism is all that relevant. That doesn’t change anything about three points, and any criticism you’re going to make about humanity being awful also doesn’t change those three points.
I could go on about decision theory, but humanity sucking or another irrelevant whataboutism doesn’t matter here. Those things will remain the same regardless of if you or anyone one else lets the cat out or not. A billionaire is going to do billionaire shit regardless.
You’re rearranging the deck chairs on The Titanic. If it makes you feel better, knock yourself out.
Tell me you cannot even conceive of an “invasive species” without telling me you are incapable of understanding that basic concept.
Feel free to read and respond to my comment rather than lob insults.
If the concept of an invasive species is an insufficient response in your eyes, then I maintain that my prior response is not insult, but observation.
Humans are an invasive species, and many of the species that cats kill are also invasive.
My comments are criticizing the notion that cats are somehow uniquely or critically dangerous. If it were up to me I’d get rid over all the imported species, including humans.
Cats are dangerous to birds that show up at bird feeders because humans killed all their natural predators like owls. It’s not a huge issue…it’s a symptom of a much larger problem.
I wholeheartedly agree that humans are invasive, but one need only look at a place like New Zealand to see how one of homo sapiens’ most environmentally-damaging qualities is that it brings other invasive species with it. Treating birds at bird feeders as if they’re all invasive is deeply reductive and objectively wrong. Animals migrate in some cases hundreds of miles in a day.
Cats are universally deeply invasive once feral, and humans letting those cats (and dogs) get out has been the primary threat to the wildlife of New Zealand. Not humanity itself. This is almost universally true on any island, from islands that have been completely taken over by rats, to the Spaniards’ tendency to leave behind feral hogs that outcompete even the most deadly of predators within a couple generations. But in only one case does everyone treat this like it’s some endearing quality: outdoor cats.
Just because there’s a much bigger problem doesn’t mean that the small one doesn’t exist. That’s just whataboutism. ALL of these need to be dealt with, but you know which one is the easiest to tackle FIRST? (Hint: it’s not the pigs)
I never treated all or any birds at bird feeders as invasive. I said that they have no predators because we killed them all. I haven’t seen any data on how many birds a cat can kill vs an owl…I suspect an owl is more effective. I haven’t seen any data that suggests that cats are threatening any bird populations.
It just sounds like something that need to be managed…and we should consider something other than the cute birds we want at bird feeders.
Humans brought rodents, and killed their predators. Are cats killing more rats and mice than a weasel could? Unlikely.
Some edge case about a cat wiping out a bird population on an island 100 years ago doesn’t interest me.
You are right. It’s why many cities will release neutered feral cats to handle large rat populations.
Anyone who keeps outdoor cats in coyote territory is just an asshole. Can confirm. Do live in coyote territory.
Anyone who keeps outdoor cats is just an asshole.
FTFY
We had farm cats in coyote territory without issue. We never lost one to coyotes to my knowledge. You just need to ensure that you also have coyote deterants like an assault donkey or a llama. Having a big guard dog also helps. Basically, anything that would protect your livestock will also protect the cats. If there are enough threats to coyotes in the area then the coyotes will steer clear.
In our case it probably also helped that mama farm cat was a monsterous maine coon who I once saw literally beat the shit out of a full grown rotweiler that got too close to her kittens. It wouldn’t surprise me if she had been hunting coyotes for sport.
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I live in Western NY state, and even we have coyotes now. Not numerous but noticeable. They’ve extended their range beyond what you might think from the Roadrunner cartoons.
You likely don’t have any coyotes over there anymore. You have coywolves.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/coywolves-are-taking-over-eastern-north-america-180957141/
This is a larger species that has the body size closer to a wolf. They hunt in urban and forested areas and are really good at taking out cats. They are also large enough to get deer.
Could be. I was on my bike, and they ran as soon as they saw me. Slightly larger than a German Shepherd but with a different body shape and longer legs. There’s plenty of wild and domestic prey for them along the trail I ride, so not surprising they’d be hunting there. I’m usually out before sunrise and see a lot of wildlife that most people don’t get to see.
Another part of their success is how totally and completely they avoid human notice in most cases.
We’ve got outdoor cats in coyote country. Haven’t had a problem, honestly I’m more afraid of a great horned owl moving in. We’ve got a dog that barks a lot. Also sometimes our neighbor will shoot a coyote and leave it out there to scare the others off. But the yipping and howling is why I wear earplugs when I go camping, or put a fan of during summer months.
Also sometimes our neighbor will shoot a coyote and leave it out there to scare the others off.
Fuck that guy… in particular
Raccoons will also rip apart a slow or unwary cat.
saying so in front of the daughter is low key savage.
But it always boggles my mind when adults are shocked and horrified that predators …predate. Especially non-vegans.
Like Bro. Hommie needs to eat, and they can’t live off beans. (well, maybe coyotes can.)
saying so in front of the daughter is low key savage.
Why?
Making children cry isn’t big or clever?
It was her father who made her cry with his actions, not the stranger saying them out loud.
…but then why did she cry in response to the stranger’s comment? Logic doesn’t seem to be adding up.
Because he revealed these actions to her? Your point is?
Assume there is a murderer who runs around killing people by skinning and burning them alive. You watch the TV news and feel sick. Is it TV news fault now? That’s a flawed logic.
I hate that passive aggression is seen as more acceptable than simple, more honest insults on most Lemmy instances. Just feeds the bullshit asymmetry principle.
I wouldn’t let my nephew see that news segment either. Just because it exists in the world doesn’t mean they have to be exposed to it before they’re ready.
Don’t be an ass.
Don’t be an idiot 🙄
Don’t play stupid. You can disagree with their opinion without pretending you don’t comprehend why they’d have that opinion.
Because the consequences were instant for the guy feeding cats to coyotes, and saying so in front of his daughter wasn’t really necessary?
Shit like this is why it’s so hard for you to adopt an animal btw. Shelters have no idea if you’re a coyote feeder
evidently not, over there
Parents be like: “Oops, my child just died, good thing I made a few backups”
Go back far enough and yes, this is exactly how people thought.
My mom only had 2, but she still considers me the basically the backup in case my older brother fucks up.
Don’t forget, potential kidney donor.
“And then people accuse me of being socially challenging!”
I love memes where coyotes and cats are replaced with different things here.
Oh, a classic. Haven’t seen this one in a while.
What’s wrong your Internet’s been down for a few weeks?
Showed this to my family, the missus remarked that maybe the dude should keep coyotes instead of cats.
If that were true it’s actually the shelter feeding cats to the foxes.
Coyotes. Dramatically more annoying little nerds.
Culture shock when I first encountered this meme almost all of it was subbed with politics
