I’ve resonated with antinatalism in the past and hadn’t clicked on to the deeper resentment underneath it, but I can see how it’s cringe.
If only ever seen it as a personal choice however, so couldn’t see the fascist angle. Do people really use it as a guise for eugenics? That’s proper mental! (and probably racism, etc)
Some people say that it is unethical to have children or imply, rather than personal choice, that it is the morally correct choice. For example: the image in this post which describes having children as great hubris.
If the personal choice is only based on finances, I wouldn’t really call it antinatalism. Antinatalism is based on resentment.
I think the fascist angle comes from its proximity to ecofascism ie “we should kill people because humans are the problem”. I don’t see antinatalism as necessarily fascist, but it’s absolutely inspired by the same desperate misanthropic hopelessness that hangs over heads like poisonous clouds. Just a useless philosophy that cannot make the world any better and imagines doing so as impossible.
I can see there’s an element of hubris or selfishness behind the idea of having children (I do wish it wasn’t so popular!), but even the moral stuff is still a stretch to project ones feelings onto another’s situation - although I can see that happens all the time, and I find it disgusting (ex-Christian, anything about projected beliefs sets me off…)
I’ve absolutely had that desperate misanthropic helplessness - wonderful words!! I’m working on dismantling the thinking that leads to poison clouds having raised it’s all my own creation (oops!), so thank you, you’ve helped me process my recent past quite rapidly!
Emotionally-founded movement masquerading as ethically-founded
Driven primarily by resentment
Distinctly Malthusian
Condemns a fundamental process of biological life
Primarily advocates abandoning the world before improving it
Adherents frequently direct their anger at mostly non-political actors
Yeah it’s disturbing that you’re getting so many downvotes simply for being bold in your stance here. I mean I do understand why… There are strong and often unexamined emotions at play here. But it’s still disturbing. Antinatalism isn’t eugenics but it sits right next to eugenics in a logical process. It’s positions on ecology and it’s emotional social resentment place it on a pipeline to fascism.
Is “antinatalism” some kind of organized movement or something? Because I think the reason that they’re getting downvotes is because it comes off as saying “your personal choice to not have kids makes you a eugenicist and a Nazi, kids are the best thing to ever happen to you in life and everybody wants them, even if they say they don’t.” It certainly came off that way to me, but I’ve never heard the term before. I just don’t want to bring another life into this hellhole of a country on this burning world that we continue to do nothing to fix.
I don’t think there’s some central antinatalist org yet, but there are smaller organized groups. I first encountered the whole philosophy when a group called Stop Having Kids put up billboards and tabled on the street here in Portland.
I think your stance on childbirth is fine, it’s the same as mine. It’s a decision for ourselves that we don’t feel we’re prepared to equip a new human to operate in the world when it’s in this state. But take our stance and make it an organization, if it’s anything more than a support organization for people who’ve already made that choice then it’s going to be about telling others to not have children too, and arguing that they’re doing an ethical wrong by having kids.
I actually meant to reply to the comment above you but I’m just as happy to reply to you! So I guess to add regarding what you asked about people using it as a guise for eugenics, I actually don’t think antinatalists are doing that, generally. Antinatalists aren’t villains, and I think they mostly mean well. They just have a lot of resentment, absent a fully matured leftist framework to guide those emotions into socially healthy advocacy. Which makes them sitting ducks for any actual villains looking for a demographic to coopt.
Choosing not to reproduce because it’s unethical to force more humans to live as indentured slaves under capitalism on this dying hellworld… is basically the opposite of fascism?
That you also consider antinatalism cringe though makes me think you either just don’t understand what any of these words mean, or that you’re an Overton centrist who’s just one little push away from becoming/owning a trad wife and feeding your offspring into the meat grinder to make billionaires happy.
Again, if it’s your personal choice to not reproduce, that’s totally fine, and I won’t try to convince you otherwise.
As soon as you start telling other people though that producing offspring is inherently unethical and they’re a bad, selfish person for making that decision, you’re no different than the so-called “pro-life” groups, telling people that they’re morally flawed and the cause of all the problems in the world because you don’t agree with the choice they made about their reproductive system.
The options with antinatalism are:
No one reproduces and humans go extinct.
Someone has to make a decision regarding who can “ethically” reproduce to maintain some stable population level.
Option 1 is unacceptable to me because it means giving up, and at that point we might as well nuke everything to speed up the process of ending the suffering that is life. And if that’s the outlook you have, I genuinely feel bad for you.
Option 2 is unacceptable because — surprise surprise — that’s just eugenics dressed up as caring about the environment or something. And when you and your loved ones are part of groups that have historically been forcibly sterilized at best and sent to death camps at worst, you tend to have a negative opinion about any philosophy that ultimately labels some groups as unworthy of existing.
Maybe I am, because no one’s given me a better explanation of it than “having kids bad”
Just pulling straight from Wikipedia, “Antinatalism or anti-natalism is the philosophical value judgment that procreation is unethical or unjustifiable” and I can’t see how that doesn’t lead to the conclusion that the planet is better off with humans being extinct.
Every argument I’ve heard boils down to “it’s easier just to die than to fix the problems that make life miserable, so we should all just die.” If you want to give up, go ahead. I personally don’t want to ever have kids, but I still want the world to be better for those who do.
Antinatalism is cringe (and also fashy)
I’m confused. Please bear with me here…
I’ve resonated with antinatalism in the past and hadn’t clicked on to the deeper resentment underneath it, but I can see how it’s cringe.
If only ever seen it as a personal choice however, so couldn’t see the fascist angle. Do people really use it as a guise for eugenics? That’s proper mental! (and probably racism, etc)
I mean, fascists will use anything that advances their agenda
Yeah, that’s fair. The bad faith actors will use any lever
Some people say that it is unethical to have children or imply, rather than personal choice, that it is the morally correct choice. For example: the image in this post which describes having children as great hubris.
If the personal choice is only based on finances, I wouldn’t really call it antinatalism. Antinatalism is based on resentment.
I think the fascist angle comes from its proximity to ecofascism ie “we should kill people because humans are the problem”. I don’t see antinatalism as necessarily fascist, but it’s absolutely inspired by the same desperate misanthropic hopelessness that hangs over heads like poisonous clouds. Just a useless philosophy that cannot make the world any better and imagines doing so as impossible.
Thesis this is teasing it out for me.
I can see there’s an element of hubris or selfishness behind the idea of having children (I do wish it wasn’t so popular!), but even the moral stuff is still a stretch to project ones feelings onto another’s situation - although I can see that happens all the time, and I find it disgusting (ex-Christian, anything about projected beliefs sets me off…)
I’ve absolutely had that desperate misanthropic helplessness - wonderful words!! I’m working on dismantling the thinking that leads to poison clouds having raised it’s all my own creation (oops!), so thank you, you’ve helped me process my recent past quite rapidly!
Yeah it’s disturbing that you’re getting so many downvotes simply for being bold in your stance here. I mean I do understand why… There are strong and often unexamined emotions at play here. But it’s still disturbing. Antinatalism isn’t eugenics but it sits right next to eugenics in a logical process. It’s positions on ecology and it’s emotional social resentment place it on a pipeline to fascism.
Is “antinatalism” some kind of organized movement or something? Because I think the reason that they’re getting downvotes is because it comes off as saying “your personal choice to not have kids makes you a eugenicist and a Nazi, kids are the best thing to ever happen to you in life and everybody wants them, even if they say they don’t.” It certainly came off that way to me, but I’ve never heard the term before. I just don’t want to bring another life into this hellhole of a country on this burning world that we continue to do nothing to fix.
I don’t think there’s some central antinatalist org yet, but there are smaller organized groups. I first encountered the whole philosophy when a group called Stop Having Kids put up billboards and tabled on the street here in Portland.
I think your stance on childbirth is fine, it’s the same as mine. It’s a decision for ourselves that we don’t feel we’re prepared to equip a new human to operate in the world when it’s in this state. But take our stance and make it an organization, if it’s anything more than a support organization for people who’ve already made that choice then it’s going to be about telling others to not have children too, and arguing that they’re doing an ethical wrong by having kids.
Thanks, this was useful - I hadnt unpacked this before
I actually meant to reply to the comment above you but I’m just as happy to reply to you! So I guess to add regarding what you asked about people using it as a guise for eugenics, I actually don’t think antinatalists are doing that, generally. Antinatalists aren’t villains, and I think they mostly mean well. They just have a lot of resentment, absent a fully matured leftist framework to guide those emotions into socially healthy advocacy. Which makes them sitting ducks for any actual villains looking for a demographic to coopt.
K
Choosing not to reproduce because it’s unethical to force more humans to live as indentured slaves under capitalism on this dying hellworld… is basically the opposite of fascism?
That you also consider antinatalism cringe though makes me think you either just don’t understand what any of these words mean, or that you’re an Overton centrist who’s just one little push away from becoming/owning a trad wife and feeding your offspring into the meat grinder to make billionaires happy.
I’m an anarchist and a trans woman but ok
Antinatalism is ecofascist eugenicist bullshit
You need to look some of those words up.
If you choose not to reproduce, that’s fine, regardless of your reasons. It’s no one’s business.
But explain to me how you pick and choose who can or “should” reproduce without sounding like a eugenics enthusiast
Good thing that has nothing to do with antinatalism then.
Again, if it’s your personal choice to not reproduce, that’s totally fine, and I won’t try to convince you otherwise.
As soon as you start telling other people though that producing offspring is inherently unethical and they’re a bad, selfish person for making that decision, you’re no different than the so-called “pro-life” groups, telling people that they’re morally flawed and the cause of all the problems in the world because you don’t agree with the choice they made about their reproductive system.
The options with antinatalism are:
Option 1 is unacceptable to me because it means giving up, and at that point we might as well nuke everything to speed up the process of ending the suffering that is life. And if that’s the outlook you have, I genuinely feel bad for you.
Option 2 is unacceptable because — surprise surprise — that’s just eugenics dressed up as caring about the environment or something. And when you and your loved ones are part of groups that have historically been forcibly sterilized at best and sent to death camps at worst, you tend to have a negative opinion about any philosophy that ultimately labels some groups as unworthy of existing.
You seem extremely confused.
Antinatalism has precisely nothing to do with preventing people from procreating.
Maybe I am, because no one’s given me a better explanation of it than “having kids bad”
Just pulling straight from Wikipedia, “Antinatalism or anti-natalism is the philosophical value judgment that procreation is unethical or unjustifiable” and I can’t see how that doesn’t lead to the conclusion that the planet is better off with humans being extinct.
Every argument I’ve heard boils down to “it’s easier just to die than to fix the problems that make life miserable, so we should all just die.” If you want to give up, go ahead. I personally don’t want to ever have kids, but I still want the world to be better for those who do.