You must log in or # to comment.
Just had a conversation about this. I’ll copypasta what I said there.
tl;dr: they’re all in on AI (their own model, FastGPT, which is terrible), they make some very questionable business decisions with limited funds, and have a poor understanding of what Personally Identifiable Information (PII) actually is.
I could compromise on some of these things, but if I’m going to pay for their service as a Google alternative, I need to compromise less than I do with Google already.
Also DDG is a perfectly viable option.
Appreciate you linking in your blog post. I’ve been on the fence about Kagi and you bring up a lot of good points informed by sources I’m unlikely to delve into.
Thank you, very interesting post. I’ve interacted with Vlad before, he’s very unhinged. I’m just using Kagi for a good time, not a long time.
I’m ready to jump off at the first whiff of them using my data for something funny, but I do really really like the idea of having a search engine that works this good and doesn’t show me ads or sell my data, I’m allergic to both. Searxng results were complete garbage on all instances I’ve tried.
I use Kagi because the truth is all other corporate alternatives at this point are unusable swill.
That said, I do not like the company and disagree with their choices in many aspects.
For one, while they don’t force you to use AI features, there isn’t a way to explicitly turn them off for your account, there always the opportunity to rack up token costs if you accidently hit one of the AI buttons.
They still don’t run their own index, instead complacent to just pay the other search providers. Additionally, if you’re trying to escape Google… Kagi runs on Google Cloud Services.
There’s more complaints, and I’m sure others will chime in, but that’s my take.
Hey, Good job not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.
there always the opportunity to rack up token costs if you accidently hit one of the AI buttons.
How do you mean? I don’t think there’s any way to incur charges for AI usages beyond your subscription fee unless you are coding against their API.
The AI assistant is backed by several different models which IIRC just call out to those providers (Op*nAI API, etc) and rack up tokens in the billing system:
You might be right that the AI cost is included when below the plan price — to that I have to say, give me a fucking cheaper plan that doesn’t implicitly include the cost of AI.Ask/vote for it there, will be useful for others
If you search some people already have. https://kagifeedback.org/d/6842-non-ai-unlimited-plan/39
And… it’s not a priority for them, maybe they’ll charge you $5 to disable AI features though 🙃
It depends on what you want. I use Kagi but I have not sold it on my friends and family because for most of them, it doesn’t really make sense.
I’ve found it to be the best search engine, but I also think DuckDuckGo is generally fine. The $5/month plan with 300 searches per month is too limiting, IMO. I feel like anyone who searches that lightly will struggle to justify paying for Kagi over using DDG. For unlimited searches you need to step up to the $10/month plan.
When I started using Kagi, I did the free trial and every time I did a search, I’d do it in both Kagi and Google or DDG. It quickly became clear to me that Kagi was better, but I suspect this will vary a lot by your field, your tastes, and your personal search style. I mean, maybe there’s someone out there who actually wants to look at Pinterest results. I guess?!
If you ever considered paying for ChatGPT Pro or Claude Pro ($20/month), then Kagi’s Ultimate plan ($25/month) is probably a better value. It includes unlimited search, plus access to all the major premium models. On the other hand, ChatGPT Pro gives you access to image generation too, if you care about that.
Kagi’s research agent is legitimately great. It is nothing like the bullshit generator Google has. It will take a prompt, then run multiple web searches to get relevant info, recursively if needed, and then give a meaningful response with citations. It shows you the exact search queries it uses, along with the results it pulls from. I’ve used it to find accurate answers to problems that I realistically could not have found with traditional search engines; in one case the actual answer was something like 18 results deep in the 5th search it performed. I think most people would give up before digging that deep in search results.
This is what AI is good for: automating gruntwork. Not doing things I couldn’t do myself, but doing things I don’t fucking want to do myself because they are tedious and frustrating. 99% of AI applications are pure garbage. Kagi’s is part of the other 1%.
It will take a prompt, then run multiple web searches to get relevant info, recursively if needed, and then give a meaningful response with citations.
Do you have an example of this you can provide verbatim?
I’m just curious; I think the one application LLMs might actually be viable for is exactly this kind of connection finding in a large corpus, and since I’m doing lots of research, I might actually find personal utility.
Thanks for describing the research assistant. Hopefully ddg copies this
Could not have said it better myself. After my trial ended, I realized I was just going to pony up for it. It has probably saved me so much time when I’m doing my own little rabbit hole shenanigans at 2 in the morning when I should have been sleeping 4 hours ago.
I’m not paying for a search engine. Duck Duck Go for everyday usage. Yandex when I’m looking for media.
Yeah, no way do I need another subscription in my life when there’s a suitable substitute.
I am open to the idea of paying for quality services that put the customer first. Hell, I pay for my email and have done so for years.
But Kagi has always squicked me out a bit. Some of their business practices over the years have been rather questionable, especially their push into AI which is exactly the sort of thing someone looking at Kagi would probably want to avoid. They are also very expensive. They’re one of those services that just assumes everyone is American so they just give a $ cost and don’t specify beyond that, so I’m going to assume their prices are in USD which means a plan for my dad and myself is $21CAD a month. That absurdly overpriced for a search engine subscription.
To put that into perspective: A YouTube premium family plan covers up to 6 accounts and is the same price and includes unlimited video and music streaming. Thoughts about YouTube aside and looking at this from a pure value perspective, paying that same price just for a search engine is a godawful shit deal. Do you know what my email costs per month? $1.25CAD
Where do you get email? Mine is about $4 US a month but I don’t like it much.
I’m with Posteo.
Highly recommend giving this blog post that takes a little bit of a deep dive into Kagi.
https://マリウス.com/doubting-your-favorite-web-search-engine/
(Not scary url, just punycode) 👍
The author surely likes that the mascot is a dog. It feels more of a read and analysis of the terms of use than a deep dive of the tool but it was a good reading and I liked the suggestions.
I also liked the “reminder”.
Edit: you should share this in some community as a post, every time I see this kind of website (pure content no-nonsense) it is shared is in the comments. 15 years ago this kind of stuff was easy to find, but nowadays, I only see them in comment sections. Even the search engine recommended around here would list a bunch of junk in the first pages.
If you want the meta search functionality, you should try out SearXNG, which is basically self hosted poor man’s Kagi lol
How dare you insult SearXNG😂
I pay for it. Finding good results in the first page saves me time and I enjoy the optional AI filters and domain-based weighting.
No, it’s just trading one centralized search product that is free and profits by using your data and manipulating you, for another that you have to pay for and profits from you more directly but still has financial incentive to keeping you engaged and searching instead of finding. Run your own decentralized SearXNG instead and take it into your own hands. Search isn’t something that should be controlled by anyone who’s in it for a profit.
still has financial incentive to keeping you engaged and searching instead of finding
How so
Up-selling and cross-selling. It’s just business. Who’s ever going to pay $25/month if the $5/month plan does everything anyone ever possibly needs? Their lowest level pricing model relies on making you anxious about running out of searches eventually, not finding everything you need within that window each month, and not having effective enough tools to find what you need at the basic level. You may personally reject that you need anything more than the basic plan, but the company’s financial incentive is to convince you of the opposite, and don’t think for a second that they’re not eventually going to try to convince you that you need to upgrade. It may seem like $5/month and $25/month are not that far apart, but multiply that across some arbitrary number of users, say, 100,000, and you’re talking about $2 million dollars PER MONTH of potential revenue on the table. And there’s no guarantee they’re not going to eventually start pushing even more expensive products and plans.
They have partnerships with other businesses too, and while those seem like nice enough businesses on the surface, they’re still businesses and they are going to have motivation to find ways to drive traffic and prime you to get subscriptions to them too. The problem is not that these partnerships exist or that there’s anything wrong with them, it’s that they’re another corrupting influence when money is involved and changing hands.
To be clear, I’m not saying anyone involved is evil, that they’re actively doing this now, that they are even necessarily moving in this direction, or that they’re even slightly corrupt at all… yet, but they’re swimming in the corrupting waters of subscription-based dark patterns and they can’t help but be influenced by them. The lust for profits will inevitably drive them mad. It always does. Enshittification does not make exceptions for good intentions.
Every SearXNG instance I’ve tested has been terrible for my test queries. Any chance you can account for that?
Did you change something at the settings? Searxng is just as good as the source it’s using.
They weren’t my instances. There are some public instances floating around so, before trying to self host, I gave them a shot. I can’t remember the specifics well. For me to bother investing time testing, I may have had a query that was irritating me on Duck Duck Go and Google so it might not have been a particularly fair test
I’d like to use SearXNG as well but experience the same - I’ve tried a lot of different instances and settings but I always seem to get worse results than searching directly in the source search engine, for some reason? (note I don’t use Kagi so this isn’t an endorsement for them either)
Kagi gave me weird hype vibes like Private Internet Access. Very cult-sounding/ hard to tell what’s a paid advert when everyone is so rabidly opinionated and it’s a bit of a niche to begin with.
I’ve tried it since then and it’s actually very good. I’ve used DuckDuckGo for years and 30% of my searches go to google for a second opinion. With Kagi, that number is more like 10-20%. It’s designed with users in mind and actually helps you find things not by actively subverting your will, but my giving you tools to build better queries and better results.
I’m still trying to reconcile my thoughts about FOSS and such but the results are the closest I’ve found to early Google. I don’t care much for AI, but I used it to accurately identify an unknown wire connector on a cable I found and the model of a keyboard someone was selling in classifieds and didn’t actually list in the description (this one took a few tries).
I’ve decided for now I’m going to put them in the same category as some of the stuff Louis Rossman is involved in which also isn’t the perfect FOSS licence though its in the direction of freedom.
DDG was great, but it absolutely has gotten worse and now gives tailored results. If I search a random name I will get doctors and business people with that name in my area even with location turned off. I moved to qwant.
Yes, the intensified focus on duckAI and the worsening of search results are concerning for DDG. With that in mind, I trust them over Google/MS/etc. It’s important to me that a search engine follows my instructions.
I tried it, and liked it, but stopped using it based on cost. If it was open source or somehow contributed to the open web, I would continue paying for it.
I went searching for a new search engine. I tried SearXNG, but I wasn’t impressed with the results. So now I use duckduckgo and ecosia, because if I have to indirectly use google, at least I can get some trees planted in the process.
I’m running a local SearXNG which still provides usable results. I don’t see the point in paying for what’s basically a smart phone book. If everything fails, I’m going full #oldweb and use #webrings or some of those retro lists.
Yes absolutely. The results are actually useful, they don’t have an incentive to keep you from finding what you are searching for. There is way less copywritten content and if there is, you can just block it.
Whenever I have to go back to “free” alternatives I am shocked by how much worse it is.
Yes
I quite enjoy Qwant
