The “horrible influences” you mention are very real. Just recently I finally got round to blocking lemmy.ml. I always kept them around because I do value breaking into other echo chambers a bit to see things from their point of view.
They recently had a video posted, hosted on X, with claims that Israel conspired with Morocco to release migrants into Ceuta. The X post itself was filled with antisemitism. And I meant full-blown antisemitism, like Jewish caricatures, Nazi-rhetoric, not the “antizionism = antisemitism” kind.
I commented that I felt a bit uneasy taking a completely context-less video, blaming what’s happening on a “Jewish conspiracy” (that’s how it was being phrased) and simultaneously fully going along with far-right talking points (that Europe is being “invaded” (despite 95%+ migrants already having returned because Ceuta is not in Shengen) and that “Jewish elites” are conspiring to replace Christians with Muslims (great replacement theory but even stupider I guess)). Not to mention the total lack of class solidarity with the migrants.
Comment was upvotes +16 last I checked, but then got removed and I got banned for “zionism” (despite very clearly expressing my disdain for Israel and its genocide in that same comment). Antizionism must be kept separate from antisemitic influences, or Israel will use it to dismiss critics and justify their genocide. That .ml has apparently failed to do this is not something I wish to tolerate.
Weirdly despite the mod removing my comment, my original comment isn’t visible in the modlog; that only shows a ban. I assume I must be ignorant of how the modlog works, but previously I could view the contents of my comment there too. Did they change that or did they mess with the modlog?
X is full of call for violence and hate speech towards all people , nothing surprising here. My guess is that your comment sounded it like people can’t say Israel control this , Israel conspired to have does that because it sound similar to real antisemite rhetoric towards jews but the different we have zero evidence of all the antisemitic bullshit about jews but he have ton of historical example of israel or it’s lobbies doing terrible things in secret . We saw how all mainstream media keep defending israel, it can’t be coincidence , we saw bbc removing 2 documentaries about the suffering in gaza after the lobby outrage , we have evidence of israel doing false flags operations. Regarding this particular event. Ynet has proven to push the israeli government framing and they wrote an article literally about this
Alongside the paid-for articles, Ynet also published promotional videos produced by the Ministry of Strategic Affairs, as well as three interviews with a ranking official at the ministry, Tzahi Gabrieli. Two of those paid-for interviews were conducted by Ynet’s senior political correspondent, Attila Somfalvi, who asked soft-ball questions that allowed him to present his talking points.
From +972 magazine
All I said was that we have no context on the video (is Morocco transporting migrants or did they intercept a transport, the exact opposite of the narrative presented? Since this appears to be in the middle of nowhere). Morocco generally has good relations with Spain when it comes to taking migrants back (by the end of the day the vast majority had already returned).
Then I mentioned we had zero evidence presented that Israel is involved. The “strongest” evidence presented is a couple tweets from Netanyahu’s son from 7 years ago. Not very compelling imo, especially given the evidence for completely different reasons for this migration wave, that Sanchez also gave.
Then I highlighted how this narrative was playing directly into the right’s hand, by having the left agree that “migrants are invading Europe” which in the Ceuta case is ridiculous by itself since it isn’t a Shengen area. And I pointed the genuine, unadulterated antisemitism under those tweets, “Jews control the world”-type shit (and worse).
I never disputed that Israel does shady shit, nor that it is a disgusting genocidal state. But apparently that’s “zionism” according to “.ml”.
So you simply ignore all what i said on why israel is involved?
The right exploiting an event is not a reason to reject evidence of that event it is so ridiculous. It like also saying people should not oppose isis becsuse the right could use it to say all muslims are terrorists and a dsnger to the western world
But what evidence is there of Israel paying off the king of Morocco to have the Moroccan army send migrants to the border of Ceuta? Because that’s the alleged conspiracy here. One video without context which could very well be demonstrating the opposite, that’s it. In the original now-removed comment I even explained why it’d be strange for Morocco to be involved like this.
I’m not saying that Israel never pulls shady shit; they obviously do (gotta complete a genocide, hard to do without shady shit). The point is that in this case the right uses this to attack innocent third parties who genuinely have nothing to do with this. It’s not a reason to reject evidence, it’s a reason to be careful with random conspiracy theories that conveniently (and falsely) validate some of the right’s main talking points.
If there was actual evidence presented that Israel is involved with this incident, then we should by all means share and publicly accuse. But no such evidence has been presented. I’m not rejecting evidence, I’m stating it doesn’t even exist in the first place, or rather isn’t being presented here. But I’m not going to go along with a random “jewish conspiracy to ethnically replace christians with muslims” on a whim.
Where did you read about the paid part, i only heard of israel being involved, that’s all. What exact evidence are you looking for? The article, the media being connected to the government narratives, Netenyahu son and israeli un envoy claiming that spain is colonizing marroccan land are all solid evidence to me that israelnwas involved.
I also adressed the right profiting from the event. The fact that the video is a real video of a group of maroccan alone is enough for the far right to weaponize the event regardless of if israel is involved or not
Israel being critical of Spain doesn’t mean they’re involved in dumping migrants over the border. It’s quite a leap to go from a tweet from Netanyahu’s son from 7 years ago to Ceuta today. That’s at best evidence of poor relations between Israel and Spain, not of Israeli involvement in human trafficking in Ceuta.
The “paid part” is the implication when the conspiracy is that the Moroccan military is dumping migrants across the border as dictated by Israel. They wouldn’t be doing that for free and implies that the Moroccan government is complicit as well.
The fact that the video is a real video of a group of maroccan alone is enough for the far right to weaponize the event regardless of if israel is involved or not
Sure, but the left shouldn’t legitimize their false narratives as that hurts other people. Nor should it legitimize actual antisemitists.
What exact evidence are you looking for?
Literally anything that proves A) this was orchestrated by the government, whether that’s the Moroccan or the Israeli one and B) an actual concrete link between the wave of migrants and the Israeli government. That seems to be the bare minimum required to even entertain a conspiracy theory like this. But I honestly think the conspiracy is a little ridiculous on its face (Morocco wouldn’t go along with this) so I personally am not actively trying to prove anything here.
The “horrible influences” you mention are very real. Just recently I finally got round to blocking lemmy.ml. I always kept them around because I do value breaking into other echo chambers a bit to see things from their point of view.
They recently had a video posted, hosted on X, with claims that Israel conspired with Morocco to release migrants into Ceuta. The X post itself was filled with antisemitism. And I meant full-blown antisemitism, like Jewish caricatures, Nazi-rhetoric, not the “antizionism = antisemitism” kind.
I commented that I felt a bit uneasy taking a completely context-less video, blaming what’s happening on a “Jewish conspiracy” (that’s how it was being phrased) and simultaneously fully going along with far-right talking points (that Europe is being “invaded” (despite 95%+ migrants already having returned because Ceuta is not in Shengen) and that “Jewish elites” are conspiring to replace Christians with Muslims (great replacement theory but even stupider I guess)). Not to mention the total lack of class solidarity with the migrants.
Comment was upvotes +16 last I checked, but then got removed and I got banned for “zionism” (despite very clearly expressing my disdain for Israel and its genocide in that same comment). Antizionism must be kept separate from antisemitic influences, or Israel will use it to dismiss critics and justify their genocide. That .ml has apparently failed to do this is not something I wish to tolerate.
Link the post
https://lemmy.ml/post/50777620 Just look at the vile shit being posted on Twatter below that video.
Weirdly despite the mod removing my comment, my original comment isn’t visible in the modlog; that only shows a ban. I assume I must be ignorant of how the modlog works, but previously I could view the contents of my comment there too. Did they change that or did they mess with the modlog?
X is full of call for violence and hate speech towards all people , nothing surprising here. My guess is that your comment sounded it like people can’t say Israel control this , Israel conspired to have does that because it sound similar to real antisemite rhetoric towards jews but the different we have zero evidence of all the antisemitic bullshit about jews but he have ton of historical example of israel or it’s lobbies doing terrible things in secret . We saw how all mainstream media keep defending israel, it can’t be coincidence , we saw bbc removing 2 documentaries about the suffering in gaza after the lobby outrage , we have evidence of israel doing false flags operations. Regarding this particular event. Ynet has proven to push the israeli government framing and they wrote an article literally about this
Abraham Accords reach the Strait: how Israel can help Morocco reclaim its north
All I said was that we have no context on the video (is Morocco transporting migrants or did they intercept a transport, the exact opposite of the narrative presented? Since this appears to be in the middle of nowhere). Morocco generally has good relations with Spain when it comes to taking migrants back (by the end of the day the vast majority had already returned).
Then I mentioned we had zero evidence presented that Israel is involved. The “strongest” evidence presented is a couple tweets from Netanyahu’s son from 7 years ago. Not very compelling imo, especially given the evidence for completely different reasons for this migration wave, that Sanchez also gave.
Then I highlighted how this narrative was playing directly into the right’s hand, by having the left agree that “migrants are invading Europe” which in the Ceuta case is ridiculous by itself since it isn’t a Shengen area. And I pointed the genuine, unadulterated antisemitism under those tweets, “Jews control the world”-type shit (and worse).
I never disputed that Israel does shady shit, nor that it is a disgusting genocidal state. But apparently that’s “zionism” according to “.ml”.
So you simply ignore all what i said on why israel is involved?
The right exploiting an event is not a reason to reject evidence of that event it is so ridiculous. It like also saying people should not oppose isis becsuse the right could use it to say all muslims are terrorists and a dsnger to the western world
But what evidence is there of Israel paying off the king of Morocco to have the Moroccan army send migrants to the border of Ceuta? Because that’s the alleged conspiracy here. One video without context which could very well be demonstrating the opposite, that’s it. In the original now-removed comment I even explained why it’d be strange for Morocco to be involved like this.
I’m not saying that Israel never pulls shady shit; they obviously do (gotta complete a genocide, hard to do without shady shit). The point is that in this case the right uses this to attack innocent third parties who genuinely have nothing to do with this. It’s not a reason to reject evidence, it’s a reason to be careful with random conspiracy theories that conveniently (and falsely) validate some of the right’s main talking points.
If there was actual evidence presented that Israel is involved with this incident, then we should by all means share and publicly accuse. But no such evidence has been presented. I’m not rejecting evidence, I’m stating it doesn’t even exist in the first place, or rather isn’t being presented here. But I’m not going to go along with a random “jewish conspiracy to ethnically replace christians with muslims” on a whim.
Where did you read about the paid part, i only heard of israel being involved, that’s all. What exact evidence are you looking for? The article, the media being connected to the government narratives, Netenyahu son and israeli un envoy claiming that spain is colonizing marroccan land are all solid evidence to me that israelnwas involved.
I also adressed the right profiting from the event. The fact that the video is a real video of a group of maroccan alone is enough for the far right to weaponize the event regardless of if israel is involved or not
Israel being critical of Spain doesn’t mean they’re involved in dumping migrants over the border. It’s quite a leap to go from a tweet from Netanyahu’s son from 7 years ago to Ceuta today. That’s at best evidence of poor relations between Israel and Spain, not of Israeli involvement in human trafficking in Ceuta.
The “paid part” is the implication when the conspiracy is that the Moroccan military is dumping migrants across the border as dictated by Israel. They wouldn’t be doing that for free and implies that the Moroccan government is complicit as well.
Sure, but the left shouldn’t legitimize their false narratives as that hurts other people. Nor should it legitimize actual antisemitists.
Literally anything that proves A) this was orchestrated by the government, whether that’s the Moroccan or the Israeli one and B) an actual concrete link between the wave of migrants and the Israeli government. That seems to be the bare minimum required to even entertain a conspiracy theory like this. But I honestly think the conspiracy is a little ridiculous on its face (Morocco wouldn’t go along with this) so I personally am not actively trying to prove anything here.
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