What movie is this even referencing? Almost every depiction of spiderman has him as a man of and for the people. Admittedly I haven’t watched more recent marvel movies. Has that changed, somehow?
Most Marvel movies suck.
They didn’t use to.
The problem is the studios have gotten lazy and risk adverse.
The reason why Endgame was so huge was because the studio took some risks and did the work to set everything up for that payoff.
There were movies in the first few phases that fell flat, like Thor 2, but even that movie pushed the plotlines forward.
Post Endgame, marvel hasn’t really had a unified plan. They’ve also become so risk adverse that if any given movie underperforms, it kills the entire plotline.
Which leads to movies that don’t have meaningful character growth, so who cares about those characters? Or those movies?
They made Spiderman rich in the movies because the writers a rich and think writing about a poor beneath them.
Other assholes include: Thor who is a dumb over privlaged fratboy who causes interndimentonal wars by acting like a dumb frat boy.
Ironman who was not only a war profiter who gave one the most powerful weapons platforms in the world to some teenager without any kind of oversight whose main story arc involves him fucking over poor people
Captain marvel is a brutal space pig who uses their powers to intimidate indigenous people on whatever planet she is on. Uses a weapon that can level city blocks and her character progression is that she needs to be more emotional. Plus she was fine committing genocide on the skrulls until she found out they had women.
Wakanda is a monarchist enthnostate presented as a utopia that tortures and murders outsiders and is presented in such a way that if it was the US the movie would be labeled as propaganda. Plus using ‘colonizer’ as a slur to call the people helping them even though they were never colonized
The eternals are boring
Wonda is everything that justifies the hate of mutants. But it’s not her fault so she gets an pass. But it highlights everything stupid about the gay and minority parallel. No hates black or lbgtq people because they can think a hundred peope to death.
Almost all of these people are sone kind of aristocrat.
Black Widow spends all of her movie rescuing like 12 people while letting and entire gulag of men die in an avalanche without even flinching. Not to mention the fact that her and Hawkeye worked for the CIA and probably overthrow countless democracies.
The guardians of the galaxy employ a dangerous psychopathic racoon who thinks nothing of murder.
The least aggregous is Captain America, a living propaganda poster. Antman, one of the only poor person appearing in End Game is treated like a joke even though he should be the most dangerous one among them.
USAgent was treated like crap before he did anything wrong to the point I kind of felt bad for him
Getting rid of Zemos direct Nazi ties makes him almost a hero. And those ties are less then SHIELD’s and less then that of most countries
Also, do not forget the beef between Disney and DeSantis only started when people saw they were working together. And only do scenes involving any kind of homosexuality in such away as to edit them out for whatever dictatorship they want to impress.
Also the original MCU Quicksilver was a thousand times better then yet another quipy hero that we don’t need. Plus asshole Quicksilver is closer source material.
Edit: wtf am i getting down voted for?
Edit: wtf am i getting down voted for?
I can’t imagine why a long-winded, dripping-with-cynicism, not-funny effort-post ridiculing and attacking the entire marvel universe and all the characters that some people might like, won’t get you those precious, precious upvotes.
Truly, I have outgrown marvel, but this is the kind of brain-dead karma-whoring and social-brain-death that I don’t miss on reddit. Not everyone thinks this deep about kid’s movies or cares about upvotes.
Sure doesn’t sound like you are over it.
Come on, you could have done better than that. I thought you were here for karma?
Not really, I was just wondering. But don’t worry Disney will be alright
eternals wasn’t just boring, it was built on the idea of “ancient aliens”, which is horribly racist conspiracy theory that effectively claims that brown people cannot build cool shit. Pyramids? Aliens. Nazca Lines? Aliens. Nobody questions the Colosseum though.
You must have found the eternals fan lmao
That’s the problem with superhero stories. The story needs to begin and end with the world in a state similar to our own (for relatabilitiy and sequel potential) despite the vast power of its protagonist, so the hero must ultimately be concerned with preserving the status quo.
It’s one of the reasons why superhero movies are in decline now that all the most famous storylines have already been adapted, and why comic book sales have been going downhill ever since they started taking themselves seriously.
Some versions do try to tell a more complex story, like The Boys and Invincible. My Hero Academia is also there as an anime
I like One Punch Man. While he is a hero. The fact that he does it for fun and is frustrated at being so powerful makes it really stand out.
I love OPM, however I think it’s more about shonen anime stereotypes rather than western superhero stereotypes
Saitama is hilarious in the driest way possible, which is a humor that not everyone can appreciate
The pilot episode where he meets a crazed villain who loses his shit when Saitama tells him ‘I am a hero for fun’, and goes on a rant on what a stupid backstory that is… before he gets blown to bits with one single punch.
The running joke of him always losing at video games because he just does the same move again and again.
His entire relationship with Genos
Doesn’t Invincible literally work with and for a secret government military organization?
TBF, Cecil is like the gold standard for shadowy government operation heads - he’s not corrupt, he listens to experts, he has no hidden agenda besides a full commitment to the Earth’s defense from near-constant alien invasion, and the worst thing he does is not fully trust Mark (with pretty good reason, let’s not lie) and rehabilitate villains by forcing them to use their abilities to protect the Earth. That and teleporter abuse, but he’s earned that.
Season 3 spoilers:
Tap for spoiler
Mark realizes Cecil is using them and nearly kills him, leaving Pentagon. There’s an epic episode showing Cecil’s past
Yeah I haven’t actually seen season three yet, but I have read all the comics and I got to tell you he keeps working with them.
Umbrella academy?
Loving invincible currently
Sam Raimi Spider-man spent most of his time saving people from imminent harm and stopping armed robberies. He fought the CEO of a company that developed military technology who was killing people to hang onto his position of power and wealth. He then fought a mad scientist that spent the entire movie putting innocent people in danger, attacking Spider-man and ultimately risking the deaths of millions out of an obsession and the influence his technology had over him. In the third one… he turns into a bit of a dick for a while because he’s being partially controlled by an alien, and the theme for all three villains is revenge. At no point in the trilogy does he target anyone who is trying to make a political or social change, just people that are attacking him personally and/or putting innocent bystanders in harm’s way.
In the Amazing Spider-Man movies he pretty much just fights a guy who is trying to turn everyone into lizards, his own stalker who just happens to get electricity powers, and the rich brat that blames him for not giving him blood samples which he thinks will cure his disease (they won’t, but the reason for the refusal is still poorly defined).
MCU Spider-man gets recruited to fight half the avengers, which might play into this if the civil war was about a larger societal issue, but it wasn’t. As far as the movie presents it, the entire issue is about the rules governing the avengers themselves and the fate of Bucky. Arguably the Captain America side is presented more favorably, but that too would go against the point the comic is making because they are the ones resisting the status quo and sticking it to the man.
And in his actual movies, MCU spider-man fights a guy who is flooding the streets with high tech weapons just for the money, a con man that’s willing to kill innocent people to make himself look like a superhero, and all those villains from the previous continuities who is actually just trying to send home.
Maybe spider-man was a bad example. Surely the rest of the MCU must be pro-government propaganda, right?
Iron Man 1: Rich selfish asshole has a wake up call, realizes that harm he’s done by filling the world with weapons, immediately exits the arms industry and dedicates his company to developing peaceful technologies to help the world. Uses the technology he developed to intervene in conflicts where civilians are getting massacred and no one is willing to do anything about it. Defies the US military to do it. The villain is a greedy executive that tries to kill Tony to seize control of the company and continue building weapons.
Iron Man 2: Tony is continuing his policy of protecting people in war zones, in defiance of an angry US government. The government tries to steal his suit for the military, and works with a rival company to develop drone versions which Tony destroys.
Iron Man 3: Wouldn’t you know it, another company developing military tech is run by an evil guy and is killing innocent people.
Captain America: Literally fighting Nazis.
Captain America 2: Fighting the Nazis that have infiltrated the US government.
Captain America 3: Fighting to save his friend in defiance of a government that would rather kill him than bring him in peacefully.
Thor: Shakespeare in space, plus Thor learns humility.
Thor 2: Blowing up the universe is bad.
Thor 3: Thor literally helps start a revolution to overthrow a dictator.
Thor 4: The gods are assholes who should care more about people.
The Incredible Hulk: Science man good, military guy bad. Smashy smashy.
Ant Man: An ex con who went to jail for hacking a corrupt corporation gets recruited by a scientist who helps him take and an evil CEO of a corrupt corporation.
Alright, I’m not listing any more, there’s a million of these things, you get the idea.
Iron Man 1: Rich selfish asshole has a wake up call
More precisely, the wake-up call being: the weapons that he sold to the US military as a war profiteer have ended up in the hands of the enemies and he gets blown up with a missile that has his name on it. It was rather on point.
Captain America 2: Fighting the Nazis that have infiltrated the US government.
…my memory must be shit; I don’t remember Captain America ever fighting DOGE…
doge is a recent name for hydra.
The super hero genre is an individualist power fantasy. It’s about giving power to individuals, whereas in real life power rests in groups and systems. That includes the power to effect social change.
It’s an escapist response to living in an impossibly complicated world where we want to do good, but we feel powerless and unable to.
The story of a character organizing a series of protests wouldn’t really benefit from that character having super powers. Using super powers (physical force) to push political beliefs is terrorism.
So the constraints of the genre mean that social messages have to exist alongside the A-plot power struggle. And they frequently do.
Black Panther is about abandoning isolationism and using a government’s power and wealth to help people.
The Avengers have an unmissable theme of not supporting the military-industrial complex. Same with Iron Man.
Common Marvel villains include fascists, bigots, businessmen, and corrupt law enforcement, in addition to the madmen and evil gods.
I’ve seen this point made a few times, and it just reeks of someone backfilling a reason to hate something popular without actually spending a moment to, you know, watch that thing.
Yep, it’s also worth noting that the Avengers organisation is infiltrated, and the actual superheroes end up fighting against the organisation they started.
Spider Man in particular is often at odds with the authorities.
And that’s not even mentioning the new season of Daredevil, which could not under any circumstances be described as “pro-cop”.
Your points only go skin deep and are surface level details of these films. These superhero stories are ultimately about maintaining the status quo. They never use their super special awesome powers to bring about meaningful or real change that would benefit their societies and never address the underlying issues that drive the “bad guys” to do “bad guy stuff”.
So you judge the movies without seeing them and you respond to my comment without reading it?
They never use their super special awesome powers to bring about meaningful or real change that would benefit their societies
This is what my comment was about. You can’t make social change with super powers. Super powers are a tool of physical force. I’m sure someone could write a great story about a super hero leading a violent and justified revolution, but you can’t possibly expect that to be a hallmark of the genre.
and never address the underlying issues that drive the “bad guys” to do “bad guy stuff”.
That’s categorically false.
First of all, most of the villains don’t have sympathetic goals. You want them to address the underlying issue with Red Skull trying to spread fascism? Do you have a problem with them maintaining the status quo against Loki trying to conquer the Earth?
Second of all, they do address it when applicable.
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Both Black Panther movies are about reconciling the antagonist’s viewpoints.
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In Age of Ultron, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver believe that the Avengers are a tool of western imperialism. When the Avengers are willing to sacrifice themselves to save Sokovia, Scarlet Witch joins the team.
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Helmut Zemo has a similar perspective. They never reconcile that, but he succeeds in destroying the Avengers. The moral ambiguity is part of the point.
They are constantly addressing the things you’re bringing up. Like I honestly don’t think you paid attention to any of these movies, because you seem to have missed some very obvious themes running through the entire MCU.
Tony Stark’s whole character arc in the first movie is about reforming his life to make the world a better place. He stops the homicidal villain with his Iron Man armor, and then he effects actual change as a civilian, because that’s how actual change works.
Did you miss Falcon and the Winter Soldier, where Captain America gives a big speech saying exactly what you are saying, that they need to do more to address the problems that created the villains? Or the entire arc of that character, where he realizes he’s worthy of taking up the mantle not because of any super special awesome powers, but because of his desire to use the platform to improve society?
The problem is… We’re handing over our sovereignty to them !!!
Lmao wow what a cool-headed response.
So you judge the movies without seeing them and you respond to my comment without reading it?
I’ve seen them and I’ve read your comment. 🤷
First of all, most of the villains don’t have sympathetic goals.
Um… they are literally more often than not complex villains designed to be sympathetic to the audience, doing things “the wrong way” for reasons that the audience can relate to. Sure, you can cherry pick the one of few that are just evil because, like red skull. How about killmonger, thanos, the green goblin, doc oc, gorr the god butcher, magneto, ra’s al ghul. Even the example you provide, Loki, is one of these sympathetic villains.
Tony Stark’s whole character arc in the first movie is about reforming his life to make the world a better place.
In all of the Iron Man movies it plays out as a cover for his ego issues and trying to prove to Pepper Potts that his ego feeding is worth all the trouble he has caused in their relationship, it isn’t until End Game when he sacrifices himself that he completes the arc and acts with selfless motivation.
Did you miss Falcon and the Winter Soldier, where Captain America gives a big speech saying exactly what you are saying, that they need to do more to address the problems that created the villains?
Great that this theme was featured once in an unpopular one season show that only on Disney+ … totally applies to all the movies and changes their underlying themes
And then… like… after his big speech… did he do it? 🤔
Um… they are literally more often than not complex villains designed to be sympathetic to the audience, doing things “the wrong way” for reasons that the audience can relate to.
I agree they do a good job of making the villains sympathetic, but their goals aren’t. We can appreciate the complexity of Loki’s relationships with Thor and Odin, but that doesn’t qualify for your criticism of wanting the heroes to “address the underlying issue”.
Same goes for Thanos. His righteousness is what motivates him, but that doesn’t make him any less insane. There’s no reasoning with the Mad Titan (except in that one What If…? episode).
it isn’t until End Game when he sacrifices himself that he completes the arc and acts with selfless motivation.
He literally does the same thing at the end of Avengers. And in the meantime he redirects all the wealth of his giant corporation away from making weapons and towards things that benefit the world, like clean energy.
And then… like… after his big speech… did he do it?
Did he… personally supercede the governments of the world and force them to change their policy on refugees? Dude. He is a man in a wingsuit. He doesn’t have that ability.
That’s why this whole argument is bunk. The complaint boils down to: “Why didn’t these characters drop everything they’re doing and start a violent revolution instead of dealing with the problems that are right in front of them?”
That complaint has no merit, because it can be applied to almost every film ever. Why didn’t Andy Dufresne start a riot and force prison reform? Why didn’t Simba implement a social welfare program for the hyenas who helped murder his father? Why are all these high school students going to high school instead of starting a revolution?
These are silly questions when you apply them to other movies. They’re even sillier when you apply them to MCU movies, which overall do a pretty decent job of addressing societal ills alongside the escapism.
😂 my man, I literally pointed out a trope of superhero films… this is like if I pointed out how cartooN physics is different than real life, “ACHTUALLY CARTOONS DO A PRETTY DECENT JOB BECAUSE THINGS STILL FALL DOWN”… 🤦
You are fooling yourself about Marvel movies doing a decent job of addressing societies ills, though. They’re literally marketed to the widest audience and lowest common denominator possible, but I guess what one considers a “decent job” is pretty subjective. That’s fine though, they’re cashgrab mass market movies, no one expects anything more.
And it just doesn’t seem like you know or understand what a sympathetic villain is… it doesn’t mean they are “right” or not actually a villain… 🤦
That complaint has no merit, because it can be applied to almost every film ever. Why didn’t Andy Dufresne start a riot and force prison reform? Why didn’t Simba implement a social welfare program for the hyenas who helped murder his father? Why are all these high school students going to high school instead of starting a revolution?
Um… what?? Andy Dufresne didn’t have super special awesome magic powers…? Lmao. And the Simba question is honestly a good one. Why didn’t he? He’s literally their ruler with that authority.
How would Sam Wilson change international law? That’s what they’d need to do to address the root cause that created the Flag Smashers. For that particular challenge, he’s not much more powerful than Andy Dufresne. The one thing he does have is a platform, which he uses, which is something you said never happens.
And it just doesn’t seem like you know or understand what a sympathetic villain is… it doesn’t mean they are “right” or not actually a villain…
And you seem to be missing the part where I’m differentiating between the villain being sympathetic and their cause being sympathetic. The former (which you brought up) isn’t relevant to your original point, where the underlying issue needs to be addressed. It doesn’t matter how sympathetic Thanos is. The underlying issue is that he’s a mass-murdering madman, so how is it a valid complaint to say that the heroes never address the underlying issues?
Suppose you took Thanos at face value and say the underlying cause is the concept of limited resources. What would that story look like, anyway? The Avengers alter reality to address the very concept of limited resources, creating a utopia across the entire universe? That sounds a little inaccessible.
I think what you’re missing about the super hero genre is that their powers are generally limited in scope. They can’t just reshape the world (except in that one What If…? episode called “What If Kahouri Reshaped the World?”). They struggle just like everyone else, and then sometimes through great effort they can save the day. That’s what makes the stories good.
Anyway, I realized as I was writing the Simba thing that it actually was a good point, so I prepared an answer.
The actual reason is that in the Lion King universe, “the Circle of Life” isn’t a complex series of interconnected, self-regulating systems like it is in real life. In-universe, it’s the dogma of an environmentalist death cult that holds together a fragile ecosystem. Any animal that doesn’t adhere to the death cult’s strictures is exiled from their society, like the hyenas.
And like, the environmentalism is fine, but forcing the zebras, antelopes, and wildebeests to actively participate in a system where their role is to be eaten makes it a death cult.
The system is explored in the sequel series Lion Guard, where Simba’s son goes around the Pride Lands using his super powerful Roar to maintain the status quo. Like if an alligator tries to eat too many of the wrong animal, the Lion Guard shows up and exiles them. Conversely, when a hyena agrees to adhere to the Circle of Life, she’s welcome in the Pride Lands. So it’s really a religious/cultural disagreement. Hyenas can’t be allowed in unless they’re willing to assimilate.
There’s a disturbing conservative metaphor there, although the rest of it smells like a planned economy. Very authoritarian either way, but then again it’s not called Lion President.
it’s not called Lion President
lmao
You are not paying attention to this discussion in the slightest
If you say so
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That would make for a pretty boring movie, I think.
Avengers: Senate hearings on UBI
Reminds me of all the space politics nonsense in the star wars prequels.
There’s a TV trope for that: Reed Richards is Useless
It has a list of reasons mostly narrative and marketing driven, so if the source material doesn’t allow it then the films wouldn’t either.
“I’m a Virgo” touches on some of that, including having a character with a power related to rousing speeches who organizes community action.
In real life, power lies in the hands of the Mafia.
This reminds me of a reel on Instagram where the singer Aurora said something along the lines of “Isn’t it weird how the «villains» want to break the status quo while the «heroes» seek to restore it?” and in the comments there were ones that said “For this nonsense people become leftist” and exactly right below that another one said “For this nonsense people become right-wing”.
Great. So we’re going to be seeing this meme 8 times every month?
Marvel is copaganda.
dc is more guilty of this than marvel, but yeah.
This is my condition on lemmy 🤐🤐🤐🤐🤐
You just made a post to describe how you can’t make posts. Why not just post what you want?
Posts are not a problem. It’s when l form my communities, that’s when l get banned. Two lemmy instances banned me after l created my communities and started posting in them !!
You must be a great person if everyone agrees that their community is better off without you in it. You are not being silenced you are being shown the door
This is why the Nolan Batman trilogy (really the first two films) resonated so well with the global audience.
It was an ordinary guy against systemic corruption, something that a majority of the global population lives in every day.
Not a superhero against an externalized villain whose motives can be boiled down to either “evil because I deserve it” (the main antagonist) or “evil because of necessity” (every thug and extra who gets beat up).
Iron Man was also basically a giant ad for the US military in Afghanistan lol. Marvel never brought back the Taliban ten rings in Shang Chi
the Nolan batman trilogy is just how the public are sheep and they need a super badass Seal Team Six operator to save them from themselves
Sadly the only way for an American to get a new thought is to be spoon-fed it through a screen.
