I dated a vegan for several years. Am a meat eater. There were no issues. The stuff she cooked was delicious, and the stuff I cooked she ate around if she had to. We respected our differences and it made us stronger
I’m inclined to be skeptical of there being no issues on her end. vegans have to tolerate a lot that we would prefer not to, but that doesn’t mean we like it.
Not all vegans are the same. I can only make choices for myself. My children have to come to their own conclusions as well.
I had a lot of issues with people because I refused to buy meat for my daughter. Why should I spend my money on something I believe is unethical to placate other people’s feelings about my daughter?
It sounds like a lot of people had issues with you for imposing your beliefs and limitations on a child who was too young to consent.
Malnutrition is a very real risk for someone who doesn’t consume meat. It’s very hard to eat enough protein, especially for a growing child. That makes malnutrition a very real risk- your child may not grow as strong or as tall or as healthy as they may have without your restrictions.
Well, I mean, first of all it is my job as a parent to “impose my beliefs and limitations” onto my child. We pretend it’s not, but it is in everything I tell my children.
And then
Malnutrition is a very real risk for someone who doesn’t consume meat
No, it’s not. It can be for vegans. But just not eating meat (aka vegetarian) has no malnutrition risk.
One might argue your job is to do what’s best for the child despite your beliefs.
And sure, the risks are lower for vegetarians but you’re still depriving a young child in your care of nutrition because of something you chose for yourself.
You seem to equate your diet with religion or some other deep rooted belief that you feel obligated to pass down. While the people who heard you were forcing this upon a child were thinking it’s more like choosing to smoke or drink heavily. Those two camps aren’t going to find common ground.
You seem to equate your diet with religion or some other deep rooted belief that you feel obligated to pass down.
If anything, passing down ethical beliefs about what is ok to consume and support with your money is more valid to pass down than 2000 year old fairy tales about who should be allowed to do what with their pee pee, not less.
One might argue your job is to do what’s best for the child despite your beliefs.
That’s what I meant with pretend. What’s best boils down to my beliefs, there is no objective criteria.
the risks are lower for vegetarians
No, there are simply no risks in not eating meat. There are risks in eating only potatos, but there’s just as much in eating only bacon. The potential risks in vegetarian and carnivore diet come from not enough diversity. But take a “normal Western” diverse diet, strip out the meat, and you’re perfectly fine in all macro- and micronutrients.
I’m not OP of this subthread btw. Nobody ever came at me for my children’s diet. Which they honestly should, as we eat way to much pasta, but that’s what’s always accepted 😅
No, it’s not. It can be for vegans. But just not eating meat (aka vegetarian) has no malnutrition risk.
No, it’s not. There is no malnutrition risk from avoiding meat.
That’s…that’s exactly what I wrote there?!
IMO those people need to chill. I used to catch shit from my in laws for never feeding my kids meat, but they’re both healthy, strong and they surpass all of their growth and development milestones. Their pediatrician is more than happy with us excluding meat from their diet.
Can you fuck a kid up on a vegetarian or vegan diet? Of course if you don’t know what you’re doing and you feed them nothing but raw fruit or something. I’d argue it’s even easier to fuck them up on a standard American diet. Don’t take your kids to McDonald’s every other day and tell me I’m a shit parent for not feeding meat to mine. (Obviously this last point isn’t directed specifically at you, but at the attitude in general).
Ridiculously false. All dietary groups have risks of nutrient deficiencies that need to be taken into account. Every diet needs proper planning, or do you actually think the standard western dino nuggets, frozen fries, mac and cheese, and fast food burgers, that too many parents default to, doesn’t pose a nutrient deficiency risk? From the linked systematic review:
We conclude that there are dietary inadequacies in all dietary groups. In people following self-selected plant-based diets, especially vegan diets, intake, and status of certain nutrients is lower compared to meat-containing diets, with an increased risk of inadequacy for vitamin B12, vitamin D, EPA, DHA, calcium, iron (particularly in women), zinc and iodine. Of these nutrients, also meat-eaters were found to be at risk of inadequate vitamin D and calcium intake. On the other hand, people following plant-based diets, particularly vegan diets, had higher intakes of PUFA, ALA, fiber, folate, vitamin E and magnesium, which were found to be at risk of inadequacy among meat-eaters. Additionally, the intake of vitamin B1, B6 and C was considerably higher, especially in vegans.
Our results show the need for additional public health strategies to help consumers transitioning to a more nutritionally balanced and sustainable diet by education on diverse nutrient-dense plant foods, food fortification and possibly supplementation.
And here are a collection of statements from leading nutrition authorities from several countries. Just one for example:
It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes. Plant-based diets are more environmentally sustainable than diets rich in animal products because they use fewer natural resources and are associated with much less environmental damage.
Of any nutrient that vegans might be at risk of deficiency of, protein is virtually never one of them. It is entirely feasible, easy even, to get more than enough protein on a plant-based diet - even for people who do strength training. From Christopher Gardner, who specializes on the subject:
Does it matter if you get your protein by consuming plants or meat?
Gardner: In terms of meeting your protein requirement, it really doesn’t. Protein contains the same 20 amino acids, regardless of where it comes from. It isn’t the amount of protein consumed as much as the proportions of amino acids, which make up proteins, that matter most. Meat and animal products have amino acid proportions that align perfectly with human needs. Plants aren’t aligned as perfectly, but they’re really close - so much so that it doesn’t matter if there isn’t any meat in your diet. You can still get the needed proportions of amino acids from plants. A lot of people think that plants don’t have enough total protein to meet human requirements. But the truth is vegetarians and vegans usually meet and exceed their protein requirement as long as they’re eating a reasonable variety of foods.
Now let’s talk about this idea of “imposing beliefs on your child.” In the first place, what a ridiculous notion, every parent imposes their beliefs on their children. What’s relevant is whose beliefs are better, which ones cause less harm. You speak of informed consent; then given how often children react with shock and sadness when they find out meat comes from animals, doesn’t it make sense to at least wait until they’re old enough to comprehend where their food comes from, and everything that happens to animals before feeding them products that come from animals? Would you feel comfortable showing your child a documentary like Dominion?
And going back to the point about health, I already established that plant-based diets are entirely adequate for all stages of life, including pregnancy and childhood. What about the typical western diets? Heart disease can start as early as the womb, and often does start as early as childhood. Plant-based diets generally don’t have that problem.
As long as a parent is taking basic steps to enure adequate nutrition, vegan diets for kids are a great choice with lots of benefits. It’s the typical western diet that is abusive.
It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics…
this is no longer their position
Yeah, it basically still is.
HAHAHA, jesus dude. No, all of that is wrong.
Malnutrition is not a risk, vegan’s have less deficiencies on average.
Vegans grow up stronger, taller, and healthier.
Carnists imposing their beliefs on kids and making them eat animals causes tangible negative health outcomes, accelerates the destruction of our planet, is and is ethically vile.
Malnutrition is not a risk
yes, it is
Source?
EDIT:
Oops. Responded to wrong person. Sorry.
It’s literally your job as a parent to make decisions for your kids until they’re able to.
Turns out its pretty easy, kids think eating cute animals is gross.
I take issue with how you’re using “until they’re able to” here. No age was mentioned, it really sounds like you’re implying that they’re not able to make decisions until they agree with yours.
Also not being vegan is not a decision that is going to harm them long-term. Seems like a perfectly reasonable choice to let them make at any point in their life.
Well, vegans have 25% lower risk of CVD and 20% lower incidence of cancer so not being vegan would harm them long term. But not really about that, I take issue how you’re framing this as a personal choice. Think you’re forgetting about someone.
Contributing to animal suffering is a choice I hope they never make just like any other violent act. Just like they won’t be sat down at puberty and told they’re now old enough to decide if they want to rape or not, exploiting animals won’t be presented as a neutral choice either.
You would put animals on her plate and have her eat around it ?
By “eat around it” I mostly meant she let me cook what I wanted when it was my turn, and if I had time I’d make a second serving with meat substituted for something else (mushroom, artichoke, etc.). If I didn’t have time, I’d keep the base and the layering separate and offer her the base to flavour however she wanted.
When we visited my parents, she’d just pick out the meat chunks and actually eat around it no problem
NGL, if I was vegan and went to visit my inlaws and they made me pick out the meat chunks, that’s pretty shit hospitality.
Her parents cook twice when we visited them, but the extra work was shared between both her parents so it was fine.
My mother’s the only one that cooks. Her cuisine is very traditional. My ex understood this
You needn’t justify, people will get triggered at nothing. Your partner seems great, app the best.
catching strays out here, my dude. sounds like a really positive take on something people find divisive.
cooking for others is so special - I’m glad your family shares that. my parents don’t cook, and certainly never took an interest in meeting most of the people I dated. but now my partner and I cook for them. they don’t like everything we make, and pick around the stuff they don’t want. everyone’s happy, so it all works out.
Perhaps when a new person joins their life they could consider learning new things to go with the old. Thats just a hope at least.
well you do of course, but change shouldn’t come at the end of a gun - it’s a gradual thing
I often opt for bean and mushroom burgers now if I get takeout just because you get more bang for buck and they taste way better than the thin slither meat patties I was seeing
I literally said its a hope. Where did I say hold a gun to someone’s head?
On your other point, mexican food is super cheap when you stick with vegan/vegetarian as well.
it’s also important to be a good guest. a host isn’t a servant. they didn’t make anyone do anything; they offered food and shared their home, and that’s pretty cool.
also, doesn’t sound like in-laws. “dated” implies casuality, and also past tense.
You’re very much presenting a doomed if you do, doomed if you don’t scenario. As a picky eater (non vegan) I’ve found that if you’re unwilling to eat something a host made they get upset. They may never directly say it, but there’s always some negativity. Bringing your own food is considered disrespectful, for better or worse. The “rules” of politeness and manners in these types of situations sadly don’t follow much logic.
So, if a host knows there is a vegan and prepares a dish with meat in it, what can the vegan do? Separating it out doesn’t seem good, there’s still probably meat juices and things they don’t want mixed in. Bringing their own food will seem rude and disrespectful to many hosts. Refusing to eat will likely be viewed as them being overdramatic by the hosts.
So while it’s true that the host has no true obligation to prepare something separate, they’re still knowingly putting the vegan guest into a catch 22 scenario. The host isn’t under obligation to provide food at all but they are and they’re knowingly choosing something that a guest can’t pick due to dietary restrictions.
I’m basing this on the types of gatherings and families I grew up around in the American southeast. It’s not universal, of course. Even here it isn’t. But I also believe the types of hosts who would be tolerant of you not eating or bringing your own food are also the ones who would be polite enough to separate the meat before and cook them separately or they’d make something the vegan guest can eat just in general.
There’s no obligation other than being a decent person. Even my GB News loving in-laws prepare everything vegan when we’re over. They’ll usually have an extra pan of chicken/prawn/etc to add to theirs but the base of things is usually close to vegan anyway or can be made be so just laziness not to do so. If someone offered me their food with animal bits to pick out I’d tell them to ram it and phone a takeaway.
Nah, it’s not hard to make dishes modular. Not doing that is entirely disrespectful.
But if the hosts show no interest in making dishes vegan-possible, I usually bring my own food anyways.
If there’s no coordination up front, the burden of which must fall no the hosts, I don’t see any issue with the vegans in question taking care of themselves while the omnis take care of themselves. Visiting each other can be more than sharing the same or a similar meal.
It’s kind of the same thing when hosts ask guests to Bring Your Own Beer (BYOB). With that, the hosts make the request explicit. With vegan food, it’s more implicit unless the hosts tell the vegans to do so.
it’s not hard to make dishes modular
This is untrue. In many cooking styles using animal based stock as the entire foundation of the dish is completely normal. Subbing veggie stock isn’t always possible given the chef is going for a certain flavor profile. Veggie fond is not the same as animal fond, which also changes the flavor. Animal proteins denature differently, and some proteins are specifically used for their chemical and physical properties (think cream for a sauce, or eggs for a souffle).
While it is usually possible to sub vegan ingredients to approximate most of the effects of non-vegan ingredients, doing so entirely changes the flavor profile, presentation, and shopping list.
Can it be done? Absolutely. Is it as trivial as you make it out to be? Not even close.
I say this as a seasoned chef who has worked in commercial kitchens and cooks 3 meals a day at home from scratch. When I know I have guests coming over for a meal I attempt to accommodate for their dietary requirements (this doesn’t just apply to vegans), but it is rarely as easy as leaving one thing out. It usually means making two (or more) sets of completely separate mains and sides, which doubles the work and significantly increases the time spent.
It’s not hard to swap animal stock for vegetable stock.
The question is whether the flavor lost from the lack of animal stock can be gained in another way?
See this as more of an excuse than a reason.
I gotta say, she may have just been nice about it.
Had that relationship gone on a long time, this probably would have been an issue. She cooked delicious things for you, where you could relax and enjoy, but then she has to do additional work to be able to eat when you cook. Seems like you got the better end of that deal, and weren’t accounting for her needs.
While we both eat meat, my partner doesn’t prefer it, so we’ve switched to mostly vegetation, including my cooking. Sometimes i make meat dishes, but it’s mostly reserved for when we go out. I’ve learned to adapt because the last thing she needs is more work to do when it’s not her turn. This is how almost every veg-meat relationship that has lasted that I know of went.
Not saying this to be pointed, perhaps your situation really was unique, but I’d take some time for self reflection on what her perspective might have actually been.
Why are there so many people in this thread telling this guy what his vegan gf actually thought
Stop projecting. You don’t always need to be right. It’s ok for other people to have different experiences from you.
Because so many people live through it bothering them, and are nice about it, just like in the comment. Spreading awareness of that is why.
Sure, yeah, that’s all well and good, but like, the dude has said multiple times that things worked for him and his partner, and there’s still half a dozen people in the thread assuming the worst and telling him all the ways he should have lived his life. It feels like some sort of moral superiority contest, and it’s gross.
Yikes poor girl.
Probably not this route lol but I’m picturing a plate of roasted potatoes, a garden salad, a bean salad, surrounding a chicken leg that’s going untouched.
I’m vegetarian. My partner is not. We mostly buy and eat vegetarian, but occasionally they’d like some real chicken or beef. I’ll even cook it for them, no problem. I just don’t eat it. It’s really easy to be in this type of relationship actually.
Of course, as vegetarians are carnists. Two carnists in a relationship is standard.
‘I still think animals are products so don’t mind when others also do’
I swear to god lemmy has the highest ratio of angsty purity testers I’ve ever seen.
I’ve never been any place online where people hate other people that match with them like 99% of the way so god damn much.
It is something to behold as a new user.
it’s common in all leftist spaces.
For real, I think it’s due to the nature of this being an Indi alternative platform. It is filled with extremists and people who get kicked out of other places.
Lemmy picks up the people who refuse to or can no longer use reddit.
I don’t hate anyone I’m just blunt and don’t care about social norms.
Given that we are a social species, that sounds like a terrible way to get literally anything you want accomplished by anyone else.
More than that, it absolutely sounds like you hate people given the vitriol you spat at that person who clearly agrees with you a majority of the way.
You also, even if you don’t care about social norms clearly understand the difference between not, for instance, participating in a silly tradition, and being unnecessarily and unhelpfully rude and aggressive.
The veggie? I view them further away from vegan ideologically than the average person. It’s not an ethical stance it’s an aversion to flesh and/or trying to shift responsibility away from themselves.
And it wasn’t vitriol I just said she views animals as products so no surprise she doesn’t see an issue?
The silly tradition I don’t participate is in speaking to people like they’re too dumb to hear the truth. That’s how I learned.
Believing that animals should have basic rights, at least some degree of sovereignty; and the dignity to not be systematically confined, in constant abuse and outright torture, forcibly bred, exploited and enslaved in every possible way, to have their byproducts extracted to the detriment of their own health, and finally to be slaughtered on a scale that puts every other human atrocity to shame - is not a fucking purity test, it’s a god damn moral baseline.
Except the other person is most of the way with that viewpoint, hence me calling it a purity test.
But they’re really not. The harms and atrocities that come from dairy and eggs are arguably worse than meat itself, and the former industries drive the latter to some extent because it’s not profitable to care for animals for the duration of their natural lifespan.
Vegetarianism is neither ideologically or functionally different than any other form of animal commodification.
The harms and atrocities that come from dairy and eggs are arguably worse than meat itself
Certifiably cap, just from the scale of it all. Meat production has a non insignificant amount of environmental impact.
Dairy does too, but meat, you need more animals to kill.
and the former industries drive the latter to some extent
This is exactly backwards
Vegetarianism is neither ideologically or functionally different than any other form of animal commodification.
This is so absurd on its face that I don’t think you’re reasonable enough to bother arguing with, and don’t think anyone reading this will think you are, so I’d just be wasting my time.
Thats bullshit and you know it, go be a pissed off teenager somewhere else.
Bullshit how?
Vegetarians aren’t carnists. Being reductionist is an immature thing. We do that for children so they can grasp things before they are ready for the full details.
I’m sorry, what? Do vegetarians not see themselves as having dominion over animals to do with what they please?
Carnism is a concept used in discussions of humanity’s relation to other animals, defined as a prevailing ideology in which people support the use and consumption of animal products
No, they dont. Go learn more about how actual people live in the real world.
Dairy cows and hens are still destined for the meat grinder, regardless of the vegetarian’s choices.
So you’re absolutely right. Sad to see the downvotes
nooo you can’t be plainly stating facts!!! I wanted to circlejerk about muh moral relativism!!
May the downvoters be reborn as dairy cows.
Brave soldier taking the downvotes. honestly lemmy has been disappointing and not much of an improvement on Reddit in mindset
Well, at least downvotes don’t rate limit you here so they’re powerless to stop me)
You’re surprised that a website designed like reddit attracts the same type of people as reddit?
You don’t realize it, but this is actually a non sequitur. You’re right, I am a carnist! I don’t see a moral issue with a human (animal) eating an animal or animal based product. In fact, lots of animals eat animals!
You’re wrong, however, to say that I view animals as products. I do take issue with the industries relating to animal consumption. I take issue with the damage they do to the planet, I take issue with the way they treat the animals, and I take issue with the hygiene and working conditions for those involved. Ideally, I’d live in a world where it was possible to morally eat whatever you fancy. Unfortunately, I live in a world where you have to eat what you can afford.
Depends on the situation, if you’re a hunter gatherer and it’s your only source of sustinance sure, if you can get whatever you want from the supermarket choosing to still eat animals that’s needlessly cruel
Get whatever you want from the supermarket
God I wish I had that kind of money
legumes and plant stuff is generally cheaper than animal stuff, so it’s a good way to save too potentially
Literally the only animal products I consume are ones that are cheaper to buy than alternatives: dairy cheese and eggs.
I spend extra on alternative milks. Alternative eggs are more expensive or significantly more effort (yes tofu scramble is doable. No I don’t have the time). I could live without cheese, or on alternative cheeses. But, cheese actually makes up a pretty large sum of calorie intake because it is cheap and can be made to be relatively healthy in most dishes.
It all boils down to money. I already spend extra money on alternative meats, and milks and raw fruits and vegetables. I still have to have money for my other responsibilities, so I make some dietary sacrifices. But I’m sure that poverty isn’t a good enough reason to sacrifice my purity to most vegans.
No you were right in the first paragraph. I was right, it wasn’t a non sequitur.
This anecdote is irrelevant to the topic because you’re talking about merely cooking with different dietary preferences. Veganism is about respecting the lives, dignity, and autonomy of all animals, and therefore seeking to minimize harm done through personal actions and economic consumption. The only relation between the two topics is superficial. Carnism is absolutely a strain on relationships for vegans, and many would not consider partnering with people who gleefully consume the corpses of its victims.
“she ate around it” . Sounds frustrating. You must be packing…
And before people downvote, I didn’t mean violence. Wrong packing. Turn off your tv. Take a deep breath and dip your head in the gutters a little bit
I didn’t assume violence, but I was thinking “there could be numerous other reasons besides a good dicking to stay with someone even if you don’t share ideologies”.
True. But that reason was humorous. Nothing wrong with a little funny haha.
You must be packing…
The terrible secret about cooking with meat is that the flavors of the meat get into everything else on the plate.
So you eat around the steak, but you still get the intense savory flavor in the carrots and the spinach and the rice and the beans.
And then the dog learns to do increasingly adorable tricks for leftovers.
True. That’s actually one of my favorite add-ons about juicy steaks. It’s gets into my mash potatoes and is like a savory gravy.
lmao, never heard it in that context before
And at the end… the crisis was not dietary? Or did it contribute?
we had some issues, food was not in the least one of them
Onward!
Opposites attract and all.
Jack Sprat could eat no fat.
His wife could eat no lean.
And so between them both, you see,
They licked the platter clean.
I’ve seen couples make it work. The guy gets to learn all about these really delicious vegan curries. The woman finds out how much meat gets thrown in the trash and maybe doesn’t feel so bad when her husband rescues a prime rib or a sea bass filet or a dozen scallops the size of your fist from getting chucked in the dumpster at the end of the shift.
A lot of vegans see animals as deserving of the same dignity as pets or humans. With this mindset the “thrown away” meat is about as much of a waste as burying your grandma instead of eating her.
This is a false equivalence. We regularly “throw away” remains (by burying or incinerating them) that could have been donated to science or organs that could have been donated to patients in need. Eating discarded meat seems more morally equivalent to ensuring that grandma is an organ donor. It’s not as if discarded meat in a landfill or buried Grandma’s in a cemetery are contributing in any meaningful way back to the ecosystem.
Not really it’d be like eating grandma when you can just go buy something else. Organ donation saves lives and is essential, eating flesh is not.
She was dry as a bone. Maybe a broth
Is that a Shel Silverstein poem? Give real Mr Speds and Mr Spats vibes.
i worked in the meat department when i met my gf. shes vegetarian. i think she was more okay with it because her dog liked smelling my clothes after work😂
She did say a good vegan option so it doesn’t seem to be a non-negotiable
I don’t see the issues here. Not every vegan is one for ethical reasons, and many of those who are vegan for ethical reasons only do it for themselves. The only vegans that I’ve seen that can’t comprehend the idea of respecting others exist exclusively online.
Vegan is an ethical stance. Every vegan is vegan for ethical reasons or they aren’t vegan. You’re thinking of a plant based diet.
Like the word fuck. Cool can mean many things and express a full range of emotions.
Sounds like they’re set up for a long and happy marriage!
I’ve heard of atheists being married to deeply religious partners. Card carrying democrats being married to magats.
If you can accept each other despite a deep difference on something like that, you should have no problem getting everyday disagreements!
As an atheist vegan, those two things aren’t even remotely equivalent. “I go to church on Sunday” isn’t the same as “My job is hacking apart animals”.
The cruelty and suffering decreases the flavor slightly & I would prefer hacked up animals that had a good life before intervention.
I think that the animals would prefer to not be dead.
animal behaviorists have tried to gauge whether animals understand that they ,themselves, might die. they call it understanding “personal mortality” and, as far as I’m aware, they have not been able to prove do understand personal mortality
I am an animal and I would prefer to be dead so idk about your point 100%.
I think you replied to the wrong comment
To be fair a butcher usually isn’t killing the animals. I’m not sure that you could say a butcher contributes much to animal suffering. You could argue its part of the meat industry so its all bad, but its not the butchers fault that people want to buy it.
I didn’t say that they contributed to animal suffering. I said that they hack apart animals.
From a vegan standpoint, I dont see how a dead animal can suffer more.
I never said anything about suffering.
Well this was an underwhelming conversation, if you could call it that. Have a nice day.
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